Hello thekong, Yes, I guess you could say that my Duetta Ultimates are similar in as much as their crossover is pure passive. While I find it extremely unlikely you'll get the dynamics my TRL's put out, I know for sure Rich broke in my speakers at his place with the Ref 75's as I've mentioned.., and said they were very satisfying overall ( KT 120's). I'll bet a strong 100 wpc could be quite nice in a reasonable room size as long as you're not " crankin Mahler"...
Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Spirit, just to confuse you further, Rich's experience with AR, TRL and his low powered SETs does not apply to NAT.
So if he thinks a high current SS amp of 200w will be preferred to valves, he is not really thinking Magma, whose 170w is darn close to the 200. If you ask anyone who does not know NAT their opinion about it you will get back their opinion on low powered SETs or audio research.
So if he thinks a high current SS amp of 200w will be preferred to valves, he is not really thinking Magma, whose 170w is darn close to the 200. If you ask anyone who does not know NAT their opinion about it you will get back their opinion on low powered SETs or audio research.
David, I'm only "mixing" amps on the Zus because the sub bass amps (Hypex 400W/ch Class D) are inbuilt
The amps to the 101dB eff NanoTec Full Range Drivers and Radian supertweeters are my NAT 60W/ch SE2SEs
No other power amps
Re Rich's thoughts, the comments he made most forcibly were regarding the bass ribbons on the Divas ABSOLUTELY needing iron control. They could certainly be used with less powerful tubes, but the resultant sound would be a mess, floatey and bloated. Get this right and the use of moderate power tubes on the mids and treble ribbons would be just fine
He intimated that VTL push pull would be fine on Diva bass ribbons and any number of SS of course
Both coordinated via the Pass Labs or First Watt B4 active crossovers
Duettas, because external crossover not possible to separate amp/ribbons duties means that the high power/current requirement applies to the whole speaker
I mentioned NAT with its unique robust presentation amongst weaker SETs, but unfamiliarity with the brand precluded him from offering an opinion
My guess is 170W Magmas are probably stable at 140-150W down to 2 Ohms and would just be pushing Rich's requirements for whole Duettas speakers and Divas bass ribbons
Interestingly, Henk recommended Divas for my 700 sq ft space, Rich recommended Duettas
The amps to the 101dB eff NanoTec Full Range Drivers and Radian supertweeters are my NAT 60W/ch SE2SEs
No other power amps
Re Rich's thoughts, the comments he made most forcibly were regarding the bass ribbons on the Divas ABSOLUTELY needing iron control. They could certainly be used with less powerful tubes, but the resultant sound would be a mess, floatey and bloated. Get this right and the use of moderate power tubes on the mids and treble ribbons would be just fine
He intimated that VTL push pull would be fine on Diva bass ribbons and any number of SS of course
Both coordinated via the Pass Labs or First Watt B4 active crossovers
Duettas, because external crossover not possible to separate amp/ribbons duties means that the high power/current requirement applies to the whole speaker
I mentioned NAT with its unique robust presentation amongst weaker SETs, but unfamiliarity with the brand precluded him from offering an opinion
My guess is 170W Magmas are probably stable at 140-150W down to 2 Ohms and would just be pushing Rich's requirements for whole Duettas speakers and Divas bass ribbons
Interestingly, Henk recommended Divas for my 700 sq ft space, Rich recommended Duettas
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I know Marc, you're using a SET and a Class D amp on the same speaker and from your past comments you're generally happy with the sound, not for everyone.
david
David, I have no choice on the Class D amp, inbuilt into the speaker itself with no facility to bypass
But it's only for output below 35Hz
For 35Hz to 11kHz, the full range drivers spectrum is served by the NATs, as is the Radians super tweeters output over 11k
I'm usually averse to Class D, but for subs duties below 35, I'm getting on with them, especially since the Hypex performance has been supercharged with Lundahls silver transformers
But it's only for output below 35Hz
For 35Hz to 11kHz, the full range drivers spectrum is served by the NATs, as is the Radians super tweeters output over 11k
I'm usually averse to Class D, but for subs duties below 35, I'm getting on with them, especially since the Hypex performance has been supercharged with Lundahls silver transformers
You made the choice when you bought the ZUs. I wasn't criticizing just pointing out that you seem to like the semi active Zus and they work for you and maybe a tube/ss combo on the Apogees might also work for you too.
david
Sure David, yes, logical
The interesting thing is that the Divas in some way are closest in crossover points to my Zus, with the mids ribbons covering 450Hz-12kHz (my Definitions 4's full range drivers covering 35Hz-11kHz)
This full range minimal crossover ethos of Zu is their dna that "speaks" to me, and the Divas almost emulate the same feat, filling me with confidence their sound would have a lot of familiarity for me
Certainly not like Maggies eg, which cross from the mids to the treble ribbons a LOT lower
I don't think I'd go Class D on the Divas bass ribbons because there is a fair amount of audible midrange info below 450Hz (whereas the Class D amps on the Zus really are covering less "critical" midrange musical information
Ok, so if I keep my 60W/ch NAT SETriodes for 450Hz and above (Rich says this will be fine, he runs 50W SETs on his Divas mids and treble ribbons), should I be looking at VTL push-pull for bass ribbon duties, or a powerful SS amp with high current reserves that approximates the saturated and creamy texture of tubes?
The interesting thing is that the Divas in some way are closest in crossover points to my Zus, with the mids ribbons covering 450Hz-12kHz (my Definitions 4's full range drivers covering 35Hz-11kHz)
This full range minimal crossover ethos of Zu is their dna that "speaks" to me, and the Divas almost emulate the same feat, filling me with confidence their sound would have a lot of familiarity for me
Certainly not like Maggies eg, which cross from the mids to the treble ribbons a LOT lower
I don't think I'd go Class D on the Divas bass ribbons because there is a fair amount of audible midrange info below 450Hz (whereas the Class D amps on the Zus really are covering less "critical" midrange musical information
Ok, so if I keep my 60W/ch NAT SETriodes for 450Hz and above (Rich says this will be fine, he runs 50W SETs on his Divas mids and treble ribbons), should I be looking at VTL push-pull for bass ribbon duties, or a powerful SS amp with high current reserves that approximates the saturated and creamy texture of tubes?
New thread started by me on amps forum, requesting suggestions on SET complementary SS amps to work well with my NATs on the 450Hz and below Divas bass ribbons
Of course, suggestions here just fine with me too
Of course, suggestions here just fine with me too
Well, the amps contributors might not be looking on this thread, so why not?
I've taken a vacation from the Entreq thread so as not to TOTALLY monopolise the forum
I've taken a vacation from the Entreq thread so as not to TOTALLY monopolise the forum
May I ask what is so different about the NAT? Other than the output power, what is the main different between the Magma / Transmitter and other megapower SETs like the Wavac 833?
Does the GM 100 / QB5/1750 tube have much lower impedance than the 833, making it easier to wind the output transformer?
If this has been discussed before, or there is some information online, I would appreciate if some members can point me to them! Thanks in advance!
Please correct me in I am wrong, my general impression is that SETs usually have less control in the bass comparing with push-pull design of similar power, is that correct ?
That's the problem Michael. We are not in a position to say what is technically different, without providing half knowledge.
All I can say is I think NAT is much better than AR in terms of SS characteristics of separation, speed, slam, dynamics and bass, plus the valve characteristics of tone. I know someone with VTL Siegfrieds and CATs who converted, and one of the ex-distros in the UK used to do Kondo in the 80s, then Wavac, and then NAT.
All I am saying that experiences with AR, VTL, TRL, and CJ won't translate to experiences with NAT, nor will experiences with 30-50w SETs. Which is why Spirit should just listen to the Apogees and if he likes them get them and try the NATs on them. He is a good client of the person in the UK who sells NATs so he should get a dem easily. If they work great, if they don't he will have to eat a lot of ice cream to get over his parting with the NATs
Kedar, above, is, I believe, 1,000% correct that unless Marc (and I, with respect to my parochial questions) hears the amps under consideration with the actual speakers in question all of the theorizing and hypothesizing and analogizing is close to meaningless.
Having written that I believe the conventional understanding is that push-pull tetrode amps like the VTLs (in tetrode mode) have better control in the bass than SETs. But that is why Marc and I cannot help but be intrigued by the possibility of driving high-passed midrange and tweeter ribbons with SETs, leaving the bass frequencies to be handled by a solid-state or a hybrid amp with solid-state output stage.
Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS
Active Member
Every Apogee (and other speaker) has a power envelope within which it can operate. Music is dynamic, and will work freely (in theory) through an amplifier and deliver an electronic aproximation of this to the speaker. Compression occurs in the chain - unavoidable. An amplifier and speaker are only truly matched if the amplifier can power the speaker to it's physical design limits, at all times within the amps grip. A good ss-A of 200w/8 and doubling into 4 can cover a Duetta/2/Sig/Ref/Advance and maintain the control. With the Divas a single amp in the 250-300/8 (again doubling) is a better idea, or biamp preferably. Different drive units have control mechanisms (or not) that interact with amplifiers in or out of synergy. The Apogee bass units are unusual here, their own balance of control and chaos for an amp! The MR & TW are more predictable, but still have their own version of less control than conventional units.
In the Diva there are 3 types of ribbon all that require command from an amp in their own ways, command a tube amplifier cannot absolutely control due to it's regular transformer interface. In the Duetta it's a "2 types of driver + amp equation", again requiring control to suit both drive units. If there is none/less the different drive units will manifest this grip deficit in various ways, the most obvious in an Apogee is MRTW bounce. Active operation can help as the back-emf from the bass does not get to the higher ribbons, but still the absense of grip is still there, measurable. Believe me - I have enjoyed many tube amps in many systems, including the later efficient Apogee's that alow more tube amps to cover their power envelope. But still - anything connected to a real Apogee bass needs to have a firm upper hand, and for this, so far I have yet to experience the equal of good class A ss. I understand this will not sit so well with tube lovers, and honestly do not seek to offend - just inform
In the Diva there are 3 types of ribbon all that require command from an amp in their own ways, command a tube amplifier cannot absolutely control due to it's regular transformer interface. In the Duetta it's a "2 types of driver + amp equation", again requiring control to suit both drive units. If there is none/less the different drive units will manifest this grip deficit in various ways, the most obvious in an Apogee is MRTW bounce. Active operation can help as the back-emf from the bass does not get to the higher ribbons, but still the absense of grip is still there, measurable. Believe me - I have enjoyed many tube amps in many systems, including the later efficient Apogee's that alow more tube amps to cover their power envelope. But still - anything connected to a real Apogee bass needs to have a firm upper hand, and for this, so far I have yet to experience the equal of good class A ss. I understand this will not sit so well with tube lovers, and honestly do not seek to offend - just inform
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Graz, when you say MRTW bounce, is that what Henk was highlighting in Justin's video?
With tubes, I think you are highlighting the lack of grip? So if one were to find a high current tube amp with good grip that would solve it?
Also, have you found that sometimes too high a damping factor from SS amps can cause the bass to be tight?
With tubes, I think you are highlighting the lack of grip? So if one were to find a high current tube amp with good grip that would solve it?
Also, have you found that sometimes too high a damping factor from SS amps can cause the bass to be tight?
So Graz, your hunch on NAT SE2SE 60W/ch triodes on the mids and treble ribbons of the Divas, which unlike a lot of SETs don't break up into distortions, have low damping factor and are probably stable to 50W good to 2 Ohms, and something like the Aesthetix Atlas hybrid suggested by Ked, good to 400 Watts, on the bass ribbons?
I know this is all YMMV big time/buyer beware, I'm just interested in impressions, suspicions atm, since there are no definitives/concensus
I know this is all YMMV big time/buyer beware, I'm just interested in impressions, suspicions atm, since there are no definitives/concensus
Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS
Active Member
I have no experience of NAT amplifiers to date driving any Apogee's and so cannot comment from experience.
Henk was indeed warning of this phenomenon.
Earlier Rich Murry was mentioned with regard to an active system using an ss bottom, and tube top. This is a good idea really, and in an active system many tube amps can work well on the MRTW's, better than ss-a unless any odd bias syetems are in play that can breech the interface. The bass is different, and likes the grip of good ss-a. Overdamped? I believe a good class A with a well designed power supply and wall supply would not be "over damped" - in fact I would say the description could be misleading...
It should be noted that to date I have no associations with any amplifier company, there are many makers of all amplifiers worthy of recommendation out there, respect where due
Henk was indeed warning of this phenomenon.
Earlier Rich Murry was mentioned with regard to an active system using an ss bottom, and tube top. This is a good idea really, and in an active system many tube amps can work well on the MRTW's, better than ss-a unless any odd bias syetems are in play that can breech the interface. The bass is different, and likes the grip of good ss-a. Overdamped? I believe a good class A with a well designed power supply and wall supply would not be "over damped" - in fact I would say the description could be misleading...
It should be noted that to date I have no associations with any amplifier company, there are many makers of all amplifiers worthy of recommendation out there, respect where due
Graz, I think this is the road I'll go down if I'm smitten by the Diva
SETs beauty, tone and texture in mids ribbons 450 Hz-12kHz and treble ribbons 12kHz-25kHz, and hybrid or SS grip, bass extension and authority in the bass ribbons 450 Hz and below
Any thoughts on whether the First Watt B4 active crossover is a good match with the Divas?
SETs beauty, tone and texture in mids ribbons 450 Hz-12kHz and treble ribbons 12kHz-25kHz, and hybrid or SS grip, bass extension and authority in the bass ribbons 450 Hz and below
Any thoughts on whether the First Watt B4 active crossover is a good match with the Divas?
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