Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[christoph]

Hi Marc

Christopher,
I've never seen anything in the high end described as "pretty" LOL
But my GF, who on a scale of '1 to 10' re interest in hifi comes out as 'minus infinity' has commented that the bespoke Divas and FRs on HiFiAdvice with their contrasting coloured mids/treble ribbon frame-bass ribbon frame, and non box shape, are "pretty cool".

My wife is VERY tolerable regarding my hobby, but when I sold the beautiful Scintillas, she was rather "annoyed"
The Studio Grands are white with light grey accents.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes, but she can't have loved the plumes of black smoke from one fried amp after another?!!!

 

[bonzo75]

Tolerant is an understatement. When he married her he had 1 set of speakers. Now he has 3. And just when I was about to leave, turned out he had an additional HT room

 

[christoph]

Yes, but she can't have loved the plumes of black smoke from one fried amp after another?!!!

No smoke from fried amps in my house.

I had and still have quite some amps able to handle the 1 Ohm Scintilla load, the Lamm M 1.1 being the best sounding of them and doing so without breaking a sweat

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have it on good authority that the NAT Transmitters, measured by an electrical engineer, are good for 100 Watts from 8 Ohms, thru 4 and into 2 (best not ask what happens below 2 )
The same authority is confident they can drive the Apogee Divas to real world levels (for me this means peaks of 80-85dB, if Bill's demo was anything to go by)
And his view is that SETs are a match made in Heaven due to the sheer beauty of the sound from the triodes/tetrodes, the fact that the Apogees act as a simple resistor
He is adamant that the Apogees=Krells equation is a myth

I will reveal said authority when permission granted. But for the time being, very happy to relate this news

 

[bonzo75]

I have it on good authority that the NAT Transmitters, measured by an electrical engineer, are good for 100 Watts from 8 Ohms, thru 4 and into 2 (best not ask what happens below 2 )
The same authority is confident they can drive the Apogee Divas to real world levels (for me this means peaks of 80-85dB, if Bill's demo was anything to go by)
And his view is that SETs are a match made in Heaven due to the sheer beauty of the sound from the triodes/tetrodes, the fact that the Apogees act as a simple resistor
He is adamant that the Apogees=Krells equation is a myth

I will reveal said authority when permission granted. But for the time being, very happy to relate this news

I guess I already said that multiple times with even more authority, that they are stable to 2. Krells were only for Scintillas. Christop loves KR Audio on Apogees, which are even lower wattage

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Postscript: I visited Steve today to catch up with I'm before I go back to London. I brought with me a CD of the Genesis album with the “Drum Duet” track -- with Phil Collins playing the drum kit on the left side of the stage and his colleague playing a drum kit on the right side of the stage. (Henk very kindly gave me his CD of that album.)

It certainly is clear and obvious to me why Apogee Acoustics has such a devoted following even today, and why many experienced audiophiles (e.g., DDK) devoted years to getting the best out of their Apogee speakers!

Phil is on the right and Chester is on the left. Sorry to derail, just something I have been obsessed with since about 1978.

 

[christoph]

Tolerant is an understatement. When he married her he had 1 set of speakers. Now he has 3. And just when I was about to leave, turned out he had an additional HT room

True. I'm one lucky bastard

But I've always had several pairs of speakers, even before our marriage. She knew what she was getting into

She still likes to complain from time to time that I sold her two favorite pairs (Scintillas and the ESL57) and not the Studio Grands she (aesthetically) dislikes.

At the moment I have 5 pairs of serious speakers (plus the homecinema stuff)

 

[bonzo75]

True. I'm one lucky bastard

But I've always had several pairs of speakers, even before our marriage. She knew what she was getting into

She still likes to complain from time to time that I sold her two favorite pairs (Scintillas and the ESL57) and not the Studio Grands she (aesthetically) dislikes.

At the moment I have 5 pairs of serious speakers (plus the homecinema stuff)

The Apogees, the horns, the Odeon horns, Acoustats, and what else?

 

[christoph]

Two pairs of Apogees:
I also have a pair of Centaur Majors.
Very underrated but VERY capable.
Brad LOVES them

 

[Ron Resnick]

Phil is on the right and Chester is on the left. Sorry to derail, just something I have been obsessed with since about 1978. . . .

I had never seen the video. Thank you for posting it.

(Thanks, again, to Henk for turning me on to this track.)

 

[christoph]

Hi Marc

I have some simply math for you:

For example my Apogee Studio Ribbon Array (=Studio Grand minus the sub) is 86dB per watt in 3 meters that equals obviously that you need one tiny watt to achieve 86dB in 3 meters distance!! And with 10 watt, you achieve 96dB

The Studio Grand plays more than plenty loud in my huge living room, even with the 2x 30 watts KR Audio 350i SET amp, let alone with the 2x 50 Kronzilla...

 

[KeithR]

Hi Marc

I have some simply math for you:

For example my Apogee Studio Ribbon Array (=Studio Grand minus the sub) is 86dB per watt in 3 meters that equals obviously that you need one tiny watt to achieve 86dB in 3 meters distance!! And with 10 watt, you achieve 96dB

The Studio Grand plays more than plenty loud in my huge living room, even with the 2x 30 watts KR Audio 350i SET amp, let alone with the 2x 50 Kronzilla...

a 3 meter sensitivity measurement? every Apogee I've seen measured is more like 80db at 1 meter.

 

[KeithR]

I have it on good authority that the NAT Transmitters, measured by an electrical engineer, are good for 100 Watts from 8 Ohms, thru 4 and into 2 (best not ask what happens below 2 )
The same authority is confident they can drive the Apogee Divas to real world levels (for me this means peaks of 80-85dB, if Bill's demo was anything to go by)
And his view is that SETs are a match made in Heaven due to the sheer beauty of the sound from the triodes/tetrodes, the fact that the Apogees act as a simple resistor
He is adamant that the Apogees=Krells equation is a myth

I will reveal said authority when permission granted. But for the time being, very happy to relate this news

80-85db peaks seems pretty low to build your dream system around. heck, classical albums Bonzo likes can be 20dbs of dynamic range.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just had a very informative chat with Rich of True Sounds
He's a triode fan and an Apogee fan and makes them sing, so a good source of Real World insight

Ok, first my room
No issue with approximate gable eaves interaction
Duettas could fill my 700 square feet space effortlessly, but in his opinion, only with SS amps of at least 200W of the high current variety. Anything less will produce output, but the bass will be loosey goosey and flaccid.
Additionally there will no way to tailor the sound to the room acoustic
So Duettas in 700 square feet, 200 plus Watts SS all the way

Go to Divas and the speaker will naturally fill the room more, but at 6'8" max width, I may need to listen closer in than the Duettas

However main difference is they will HAVE to be bi amped via Pass Labs or First Watt crossover, beefy 200 plus Watts SS to bass panel.
But this will allow more moderate powered triode/tetrode to mids and treble ribbons.
He uses an 250W amp to his Diva bass ribbon, and 50W triode to mids/treble ribbons

He is adamant anything less than this will shortchange either Apogee

 

[Lissnr]

Rich has been my "Main man Apogee guy" for several years. As previously mentioned he rebuilt a pair of Duettas for me which were besutifully done and after a brief stint with a pair of Divas ( that didn't fit, as mentioned earlier), he built me my current TSW Duetta Ultimates which were the subject of Ked's recent [ extremely positive] visit. Rich is the real deal for Apogees in my neck of the world ... (USA!).

 

[thekong]

Hi Lissnr, I seem to remember Rich rebuilt some FR (or was it Diva ?) with all passive Xover, which he believed could be driven well with less than 100W.

Is your TSW Duetta Ultimates something along that line ?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Michael, this thread, and by definition Apogee, is fascinating/frustrating in equal measure for having absolutely no consensus for what is permissible/ideal on the power/tube requirement argument on the basis of the huge disparity of opinions and owner experiences

Henk and Jon Oakey in the UK have kind of intimated that 120W of triode/tetrode power good for Duettas and Divas, indeed not much separates what their needs are
Rich is more specific in saying Duettas will not give of their best with less than 200W/high current amps, and Divas will only give of their best with triodes if these are solely used on the mids and treble ribbons, and again at least 200W/high current amps on the bass ribbons

My humble apologies to Rich, Henk and Jon if I have oversimplified their views/paraphrased thir advice incorrectly, but there is an awful lot of fat to chew here

I do believe my 700 sq ft room best suited to Divas, and my instinct is that Rich's opinions most likely to be correct
That means I'll be fine to run my existing NAT SE2SEs on the Diva mids and treble ribbons, but will have to find a sledgehammer high Watts/high current push pull tubes or SS amp for bass ribbons duties

Just what high power tubes/SS will complement my NATs?

 

[thekong]

Hi Marc, as I have mentioned before, like many subjects on audio (tubes vs SS, analogue vs digital, SUT vs active MC gain, panel vs conventional vs horn speakers etc.), there will always be people on opposite sides of the camps! It would be hard-pressed to get any consensus on the topic. You can never be 100% sure until you tried the combo in your own room!

Just like when Rich prefers driving the Diva with high power SS for the bass, and triodes for the mid/treble, I believe the best would be keeping all the amps the same / very similar!

With all due respects to Henk, Jon and Rich’s comments (their experience and insights are, of course, invaluable), but how do you know your preference aligns with any of their? How do you know what sounds good to them also sounds good to you, unless you have auditioned their systems?

Now, it is very obvious that you will not get a definite answer on paper! So, I believe you should just relax, and decide which direction to go only after you actually have some auditions with Apogees in combination with the potential amp combos!

 

[ddk]

Just like when Rich prefers driving the Diva with high power SS for the bass, and triodes for the mid/treble, I believe the best would be keeping all the amps the same / very similar!

I was going to say something along the same lines to Marc but then I remembered that he's already mixing amps with his Zu speakers so he might not mind the mixture. FYI I'm in same camp as you, KISS. Same amps for bi-amping a full range speaker, I'd even go further and suggest same or very similar amp for subs too.

david