Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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That's strange, the MRTW should not be visibly moving under almost any circumstance. I've seen it happen before though, and I'm still not shure what is causing this movement. They are finicky speakers, no doubt about it.... Of the three pairs of refurbished speakers I've had the pleasure of owning myself, only 1 midrange ever did this.
My duetta's were always rock steady.
My FR's: only the lhs midrange ever moved a little more than I thought was acceptable, this turned out to be a not perfect connection between the ribbon and the copper clamping block.
My Grands: the lhs midrange moves just a tad, I suspect the connection between cablepod and cable fork is not perfect here....
In other words: this movement is not good imho, and needs some investigation
My duetta's were always rock steady.
My FR's: only the lhs midrange ever moved a little more than I thought was acceptable, this turned out to be a not perfect connection between the ribbon and the copper clamping block.
My Grands: the lhs midrange moves just a tad, I suspect the connection between cablepod and cable fork is not perfect here....
In other words: this movement is not good imho, and needs some investigation
In all seriousness, they do stay fairly still on a very wide range of program. I definitely have some dodgy lose connectors - Cardas jobs, attached to the back of the power amp. These will get replaced soon. Maybe the SPL was agitating them. Very possible they really are lose things.
The guy that supplied the interconnects has had a number of complaints about it. It seems like Cardas don't know the diameter of an RCA plug. The centre pins are offset, oddly, in a design that seems to rely on the centre pin offset providing satisfactory grip. They're crap, in other words.
The guy that supplied the interconnects has had a number of complaints about it. It seems like Cardas don't know the diameter of an RCA plug. The centre pins are offset, oddly, in a design that seems to rely on the centre pin offset providing satisfactory grip. They're crap, in other words.
Frantz, re the Transmitters on the Vandys
Yes, I am aware the bass is actively driven
But the Transmitters were making themselves very apparent thru the mids and treble, and this was beyond exemplary
Tone was truly saturated, almost chocolatey, no lack of drive, grip or energy
I'm sure the SS bass amps were vital but most of the character of moderate efficiency speakers was the synergy with the Transmitters
My previous Audions likely might have struggled
Always the possibility of bi amping via Diva passive crossover with two pairs of Transmitters/Magmas
Justin, I did ask Peter to allow a demo of the Transmitters at your's, but the response wasn't positive
I'll reliably take it that if your 211s work with your Duettas, the NAT tetrodes would too
Yes, I am aware the bass is actively driven
But the Transmitters were making themselves very apparent thru the mids and treble, and this was beyond exemplary
Tone was truly saturated, almost chocolatey, no lack of drive, grip or energy
I'm sure the SS bass amps were vital but most of the character of moderate efficiency speakers was the synergy with the Transmitters
My previous Audions likely might have struggled
Always the possibility of bi amping via Diva passive crossover with two pairs of Transmitters/Magmas
Justin, I did ask Peter to allow a demo of the Transmitters at your's, but the response wasn't positive
I'll reliably take it that if your 211s work with your Duettas, the NAT tetrodes would too
My MRT ribbons have been fluttering since 1990. I think if you use tube preamp, you may get some extra low frequency harmonics. it doesn't take much to get an excursion.
As far as I can tell after years and years, fluttering does no harm as long as there is not crinkling or twisting back on to itself. Might actually help dispersion.
Yes, the tendency to move is much less with high current amplifiers and a solid state amplification chain.
As far as I can tell after years and years, fluttering does no harm as long as there is not crinkling or twisting back on to itself. Might actually help dispersion.
Yes, the tendency to move is much less with high current amplifiers and a solid state amplification chain.
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spirit
"Bass" covers the range from 100 Hz to 500 Hz and up there the character of main amps will be retained. You are correct in this regard. My point was the amplifers were relieved of the duty to drive the woofers which can be taxing for some amps.
Honestly I'll turn down my skepticism and wait for your report. You are a gentleman.
CJ, apologies if you've already answered this
But did you make a definite choice of Analysis over Apogee?
May I ask what were the defining factors?
Ked who has heard both has come a very different conclusion from you
But did you make a definite choice of Analysis over Apogee?
May I ask what were the defining factors?
Ked who has heard both has come a very different conclusion from you
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I don't recall Ked's opinion. I was thinking of buying rebuilt Apogee many years ago, a good buy came up with Analysis Epsilons and I had heard them in an audio parlor in San Jose and was impressed.
I wrote an extensive comparison on the Apogee User's group in the day, comparing the differences between Analysis, Maggies, electrostats and Apogees. Apogees: fuller, creamier sound Analysis: a bit more on the side of defined and quick, with less of the tasty fullness in the bass panel. The Analysis bass panel is a variant of a Maggie type, being foil strips suspended in mylar. I think the Analysis implementation is better sounding than Maggies, but doesn't quite have the Apogee charm in the lower midrange. I thought that Analysis was a nice blending of electrostat type quickness and Apogee presence.
My bugaboo was I liked tubes and Analysis works better with tubes than full ribbon Apogees. Strange thing is, I am now running VFET amps with directly heated triode drivers and am using the VFETs where I used to use my SET amps. That combo has a certain magic that seems to transcend both tubes and solid state. I think VFETs are the closest solid state analog to a very high power DHT type OTL array without the impedance problems. The VFETs like impedances at 4 ohms and above, but because ribbons are static impedances and are seen as a pure resistor, they will work OK down to about 2.5 ohms. That covers most ribbons, and those that don't would need impedance matching transformers.
I would love to hear what directly heated triode drivers with VFETs would sound like with a Duetta or a Diva. I bet it would be killer diller. The advantage is a lot more power and discipline for the panels without giving up a lot of the characteristics of tube beauty.
Hi Marc, after this many pages of discussions, as well as those in the other threads, I think you probably have as much information as you can get on paper!
There will always be people, including myself, thinking more power than, say, 120W is needed for the Duetta, and there will always be people thinking 80-120W (or even lower power) SET will be sufficient. There is no right or wrong, just that we have different expectations and preferences (room size, music type, required volume etc.). So, after all, you have to be the final judge with actual audition!
I am throwing a curve ball here, I wonder if you have ever auditioned a pair of, preferable restored, Quad ESL57? If I read it right, your preferred listening volume is around 75db peak, perfect range for the ESL57.
Other may disagree, but I think Apogees do need to play at slightly higher volume to bring the best out of them. In this area, Apogees are already better than the bigger Maggies, which demand to be played loud to make them sound lively, IMHO
The ESL57, on the other hand, is perfectly at home, and a delight, at lower volume. Yes, useful bass only gets down to 50Hz or so, but surprisingly can be quite powerful (at low to mid volume) within that range if driven properly. Also, yes, the impedance curve is rather crazy, but a nice 30-60W tube amp should drive them well. Since you are in the UK, probably not too hard to find a chance for audition.
Actually, I have acquired 3 pairs of good condition ESL57s. I am planning to construct a triple-stacked ESL57 system when I retire in a few years time! It would be an interesting system if the ESL could match with the FR bass panel and Maggie ribbon tweeter! That is a dream
There will always be people, including myself, thinking more power than, say, 120W is needed for the Duetta, and there will always be people thinking 80-120W (or even lower power) SET will be sufficient. There is no right or wrong, just that we have different expectations and preferences (room size, music type, required volume etc.). So, after all, you have to be the final judge with actual audition!
I am throwing a curve ball here, I wonder if you have ever auditioned a pair of, preferable restored, Quad ESL57? If I read it right, your preferred listening volume is around 75db peak, perfect range for the ESL57.
Other may disagree, but I think Apogees do need to play at slightly higher volume to bring the best out of them. In this area, Apogees are already better than the bigger Maggies, which demand to be played loud to make them sound lively, IMHO
The ESL57, on the other hand, is perfectly at home, and a delight, at lower volume. Yes, useful bass only gets down to 50Hz or so, but surprisingly can be quite powerful (at low to mid volume) within that range if driven properly. Also, yes, the impedance curve is rather crazy, but a nice 30-60W tube amp should drive them well. Since you are in the UK, probably not too hard to find a chance for audition.
Actually, I have acquired 3 pairs of good condition ESL57s. I am planning to construct a triple-stacked ESL57 system when I retire in a few years time! It would be an interesting system if the ESL could match with the FR bass panel and Maggie ribbon tweeter! That is a dream
I agree to a certain extend!
But if it is true that Marc’s preferred listening volume is around 75db peak, I doubt the Duetta would be much more dynamic at that volume. IMHO, of course!
Hi no I have not come at a different conclusion from him. He has original apogee stages and analysis epsilons
I've said it before but frame braced Duettas are much better at low volume than my previous Duettas. I was very surprised by that - but there are very real gains at higher SPLs too, which is what I was targeting by specifying the frame bracing method used.
EDIT: it's very curious. I always thought ML Ascents were poor at low volume. Standard Duettas are better. Frame braced better again. It seems that low level information just gets lost in non-rigid frames. That would explain the Maggie dilemma too.
EDIT: it's very curious. I always thought ML Ascents were poor at low volume. Standard Duettas are better. Frame braced better again. It seems that low level information just gets lost in non-rigid frames. That would explain the Maggie dilemma too.
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I don't doubt that at all! When I see panel speakers that can move slightly back and forth when someone push on it, I know that just can't be a good thing! I think all of them should be braced for best performance!
Do you mind if I put the bracing internally?
The back of the scintilla shown here is then covered with speakercloth:
Probably the stiffest scinnies on the planet
Added benefit: I now have ample space for a high quality filter beneath the ribbons, and the added height makes the scinnie even more of a line source.
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