Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[Zero000]

Just order some Divas now Marc. And if you don't like them, sell them. You will lose very little money. By the time you move in they might be ready...

I see no fault in that logic apart from some hassle factor moving them on.

Other questions about low level playing etc you have asked before.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Henk, I'm so pleased you're partaking
Can you add some words of wisdom to my ongoing quest to rid myself of Apogee anxiety LOL?
One, this dilemma on using NATs with them
Florian is running two pairs of 120 W/ch NAT Transmitters on his Grands (with the treble ribbons and woofers actively powered SS I believe)
He swears by them, but my room is way larger than his, and I'll be running one pair of Transmitters (possibly 170W Magmas if the stars align)
And SETs were really never envisaged for Apogee duties
It is coming to light that the NATs are truly special with the Transmitters not distorting until they exceed 80W of their available 120 (Magmas probably get to 130-140 Watts before distorting)
Is a maximum of 2m between them honestly a compromise especially if listening at 4-5m distance?
Do they work if you invert them to have mids and treble ribbons outermost, bass ribbons innermost.
Thanks in advance for pearls of wisdom

 

[RBFC]

Henk,

When you restore Full Ranges, do you leave the tweeter adjustment switch operational? I ask this because Ron reported them sounding a little bit "dark", which was certainly not my experience with my original pair. I was using 4 Krell KMA-160 amps and the Apogee active crossover, with a pair of amps on the bass panels and the other pair driving the midrange/tweeter section via the 4ohm tap on the speaker base.

Lee

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, will do my best to hear them first
Either in the Uk or at Henk's
I really do need to go slowly here
I've pretty much used up my quota of qs, I don't want to squat on this thread
Will look forward to ongoing sharing of info, make those demos, save the min £20k budget needed for Graz restored and upgraded amps, and see how I feel
It may appear that I'm procrastinating but this is for me a different kind of commitment
I probably declared devotion to my GF quicker than I will with Apogees LOL

 

[henk]

Henk,

When you restore Full Ranges, do you leave the tweeter adjustment switch operational? I ask this because Ron reported them sounding a little bit "dark", which was certainly not my experience with my original pair. I was using 4 Krell KMA-160 amps and the Apogee active crossover, with a pair of amps on the bass panels and the other pair driving the midrange/tweeter section via the 4ohm tap on the speaker base.

Lee

Lee,

As a matter of fact, I just finished restoring a pair of FR's, which still contain the switch.

I'll be delivering them tuesday, so I should be able to give you an answer a few days later

Henk

 

[thekong]

Interesting. The grille material Jon Oakey uses - I just cannot hear any difference with the covers on or off. Absolutely none. And this is from a person who always removed grilles from speakers he has used in the past.

TBH I think Jon said it is the same as Apogee used. Can you say the same of your grilles? If so, I am amazed you can hear a difference.

I am not sure what grill material Jon use with his restoration, but mind was pretty much like the bug screen used in the US! If you take a careful look at it, you would find the materials blocked around at least 10-15% of the opening area. I do hear a difference with the cover on and off!

 

[henk]

Henk, I'm so pleased you're partaking
Can you add some words of wisdom to my ongoing quest to rid myself of Apogee anxiety LOL?
One, this dilemma on using NATs with them
Florian is running two pairs of 120 W/ch NAT Transmitters on his Grands (with the treble ribbons and woofers actively powered SS I believe)
He swears by them, but my room is way larger than his, and I'll be running one pair of Transmitters (possibly 170W Magmas if the stars align)
And SETs were really never envisaged for Apogee duties
It is coming to light that the NATs are truly special with the Transmitters not distorting until they exceed 80W of their available 120 (Magmas probably get to 130-140 Watts before distorting)
Is a maximum of 2m between them honestly a compromise especially if listening at 4-5m distance?
Do they work if you invert them to have mids and treble ribbons outermost, bass ribbons innermost.
Thanks in advance for pearls of wisdom

Marc,

I don't foresee a problem running the Diva's with 170 watts of good tube power. They won't go as loud as the ones I heard being driven by a pair of X600's, but to be honest, nobody should ever want to play THAT loud anyway!
But then, the only time I ever heard apogees sing on tubes was a pair of scintilla's being driven by a 60 W/channel KRaudio integrated. Christoph will probably remember the exact type, he was there too.
That did not go loud enough to my taste, but the playback level was almost acceptable, and it sounded glorious!

Tweeters on the outside is a big no-no, Ive never heard them sou nd anywhere near as good that way.

And really, 2 meters inbetween tweeters is enough for a very wide soundstage, if the rest of the gear is up to the task

Henk

PS getting rid of apogee anxiety is the easy part: just buy a pair, you'll never look back. Who know, you might even start to like SS amps (just kidding!)

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's Ron you don't want to suggest SS to LOL
My amps likely to be 120W Transmitters, not 170W Magmas
Good to hear about placement, one less worry

 

[Zero000]

I am not sure what grill material Jon use with his restoration, but mind was pretty much like the bug screen used in the US! If you take a careful look at it, you would find the materials blocked around at least 10-15% of the opening area. I do hear a difference with the cover on and off!

Does it look like this?

The other reason I thought you may not be using the front panels is that pure foil tweeter excursion. It is immense!

 

[bonzo75]

Marc,

I don't foresee a problem running the Diva's with 170 watts of good tube power. They won't go as loud as the ones I heard being driven by a pair of X600's, but to be honest, nobody should ever want to play THAT loud anyway!
But then, the only time I ever heard apogees sing on tubes was a pair of scintilla's being driven by a 60 W/channel KRaudio integrated. Christoph will probably remember the exact type, he was there too.
That did not go loud enough to my taste, but the playback level was almost acceptable, and it sounded glorious!

Tweeters on the outside is a big no-no, Ive never heard them sou nd anywhere near as good that way.

And really, 2 meters inbetween tweeters is enough for a very wide soundstage, if the rest of the gear is up to the task

Henk

PS getting rid of apogee anxiety is the easy part: just buy a pair, you'll never look back. Who know, you might even start to like SS amps (just kidding!)

Va 350I I think

 

[bonzo75]

Lee,

As a matter of fact, I just finished restoring a pair of FR's, which still contain the switch.

I'll be delivering them tuesday, so I should be able to give you an answer a few days later

Henk

What is he driving them with, and what is roughly his room size

 

[Ron Resnick]

Henk,

When you restore Full Ranges, do you leave the tweeter adjustment switch operational? I ask this because Ron reported them sounding a little bit "dark" . . .

Dear Lee,

I have never heard Full Ranges.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron was talking about the Grands

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I just finished restoring a pair of FR's . . .

Dear Henk,

Just out of curiosity - for this pair of recently restored Full Ranges -- what cross-over is the customer planning to use?

 

[henk]

Ron,

For some reason I've never felt the need to change the FR filter.
So it's still original, abeit with a new switch.

Henk

 

[bonzo75]

Ron,

For some reason I've never felt the need to change the FR filter.
So it's still original, abeit with a new switch.

Henk

Henk,
What is he driving them with, and what is roughly his room size

 

[KeithR]

Paul Miller measured the NAT Transmitter tube power amp in the ultra linear mode. BTW, the output impedance at 4 ohm is around .85 ohm.

So that's not really SET. More of a hybrid design. Makes more sense. If its 120 watts at full power/distortion, you probably want to be under 30 watts in your room.

To put things in perspective, Evolution Acoustics MM3s (93db efficient into 7 ohms) were hitting 80+ watt peaks on Dartzeel 458s in a largish room at Newport.

I'd love to hear ddk's opinion on all of this. He has 1) Apogee experience and 2) SET experience.

 

[RBFC]

Dear Lee,

I have never heard Full Ranges.

Sorry, Ron. I "thought" that the Grands had the switch too, but it's been over 20 yrs since Jason Bloom walked me around them!

Lee

 

[bonzo75]

So that's not really SET. More of a hybrid design. Makes more sense. If its 120 watts at full power/distortion, you probably want to be under 30 watts in your room.

To put things in perspective, Evolution Acoustics MM3s (93db efficient into 7 ohms) were hitting 80+ watt peaks on Dartzeel 458s in a largish room at Newport.

I'd love to hear ddk's opinion on all of this. He has 1) Apogee experience and 2) SET experience.

Ddk can correct me if wrong, but I don't think he believes in SETs greater than 30 to 50 watts, and his recommendation for the original apogees will be powerful SS

 

[Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS]

BTW the Champ has a tube and solid state mode of operation switch. It simply alters damping factor. The effect is subtle, as the manual states. So subtle there isn't much in it and both modes sound great, with the lower damping factor sounding freer and easier, the higher damping factor slightly tighter and fractionally more closed in.

A very interesting and well designed amp that delivers for very little money. It is a "musical" amp, as the manual claims.

Top stuff.

Interestingly, Apogees or planar magnetic speakers and headphones aren't actually that affected by damping factor, which I why I believe I hear so little difference between the modes.

Regarding damping factor - I would hugely disagree here from my personal experience. I like tube amps a lot in some systems, and have had very good experience with tubes on Definitive and Synergy planars, but ultimately the best I have heard Apogee's past and present consistently has been with well made and implemented class A ss amps. When developing and voicing a new planar I have to be very careful to choose neutral amplifiers as amplifier flavours are very obvious to hear. Funnily enough the first time this was very obvious to me was with 3 tube amps from the same mfr (DXT). We had groups of 12, 17 and 45w all-tube amps and were running the Definitive full planars with them in active configuration. The Definitives are efficient enough and friendly enough to work with any amp on any driver and still power the room they were in at the time to it's limits - and for curiosity's sake all possible combinations were tried for all amps present. It was easy to hear the actual characteristics of the individual amp types evident through whatever driver they were connected to! We settled on a full compliment of 17w amps as the best solution on the day, memorable...