Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[fas42]

Fair enough. I personally have found the speakers to be more challenging than the electronics.

Mike's comment in the next post is what it's all about, for me ...

they (big dart 458's) bring an ease and authority to the sound in my large room which remove the sense of reproduction to a much greater extent. and the more the music gets 'complicated' the greater the difference. they 'scale' without even a thought to it.

This is the crucial element for getting convincing sound - and that is totally a function of the electronics side of the system, particularly the amplifier. IME even relatively mediocre speakers "lift their game" to this level when the prior chain is up to it ...

 

[bonzo75]

I have often tried to listen to speakers i have not liked with various amplifiers. While they sounded better with some amps than others, they never sounded anything more than mediocre. On the other hand, techdas and similar TTs have made a lot of difference to systems.

I have had NAT magma special edition, magnetostat special edition, Jadis JPl, Jadis ja 100 and VAC 300b 30w in my room with the same speaker. The big difference always happened when my Sony sacd player was replaced by the Lampi.

You will be able to find many amps to drive the speakers you end up choosing.

 

[fas42]

I have had NAT magma special edition, magnetostat special edition, Jadis JPl, Jadis ja 100 and VAC 300b 30w in my room with the same speaker. The big difference always happened when my Sony sacd player was replaced by the Lampi.

You will be able to find many amps to drive the speakers you end up choosing.

My perspective is that it's always a system issue - the sound works, or doesn't, depending on well the system has been sorted out - this is something many people call synergy, but personally I find this a bad approach in one's thinking; saying "synergy is good" simply means the system is working properly, versus having audible flaws. And if the perceived, and required quality is not there then the solution could be almost anything, and most likely a combination of approaches.

 

[RBFC]

I'd like to thank the recent respondents for their input here. I, like others, found that the Krell KMA-160 mono blocks were the "sweet spot" in the line for many years of their amps. I had 2 pairs for active biamp on the Full Ranges. I compared the previous generations KSA-200 and others and found them lesser in sound quality (by a smallish margin). Only the recently-retired EVO series (of which I still have the EVO403) compared in sound quality IMO. Dallasjustice also thought that the EVOs were superb amps, but boy do they get warm!

It's interesting to hear all the discussion about amplifiers with Apogees, as it truly details how revealing the speakers are (and how demanding of certain "entry" power requirements they are!).

Lee

 

[Zero000]

I've heard 3 Krells on Apogees. KSA 50, KAV 250A, KSA 300.

Used with an Air Tight passive, the KSA 50 was dreadful on my Duettas. The KAV 250a was better by a margin, but had the advantage of a good tube pre. However, the same KAV 250a was magic on MBL 116F. Seriously good with them and I have heard a fair few amps on those speakers.

The KSA 300 was on Calipers. A really good relatively recent renovation. That was with a Krell pre and Krell Ref 64 DAC . It worked well. I was surprised.

 

[morricab]

last year I had the privilege of enjoying the Berning 211/845 Monoblock amplifers in my room overnight. likely the finest sounding tube amplifiers I've heard. 60 watts with the 845 tube. you would think it would be fine on my easy load 96db, 6 ohm load MM7 main towers. it did not even have to do deep bass. it did sound realistic.

but there is realistic, and then there is REALISITIC!!!!

the solid state big dart 458's simply take things to a much more real and complete level......even while never indicating higher than 15 to 20 watt peaks on their front readouts.....mostly staying at '0' or '1' on the continuous readout. they bring an ease and authority to the sound in my large room which remove the sense of reproduction to a much greater extent. and the more the music gets 'complicated' the greater the difference. they 'scale' without even a thought to it.

electronics have to match the speaker and the room to approach 'suspension of disbelief'. otherwise the 'lack of ease' continually draws attention to itself.....when contrasted with amplification that can fully do the job.

amplifier sound is a matter of personal taste. but a system that can scale without stress is more real.

What is not clear to me from the information on the Bernings is whether they are parallel SET or push/pull. Do you know?

About your MM7s. is the 96db sensitivity and relatively high impedance confirmed independently somewhere? If not, then I have to hold those values as somewhat suspect for a non-horn speaker. Keep in mind also that MM7 is a multi-way system with a complex crossover that has probably not the easiest load from the phase POV even if the impedance values are highish. I mention this because complex crossovers tend to suck power. All I am saying is that perhaps your speaker is not quite as friendly as it might profess to be on paper.

One large speaker though that sounds plenty effortless with moderate powered tube amps is the big Wilson. I have not heard the XLF but I have heard it's ancestor the Grand SLAMM MK I and MK III with a 30 watt KR Audio amp. Those speakers are a true 95db and easy load and you hear it. The KR drove the hell out of them even though the MK IIIs were in a rather large (100 square meter) room and we were a good 5 meters away. I have also driven Acapella Violons with the same amp and it effortless out performed a big Electrocompaniet amp...even on the bass! The MK I in a smaller room was super dynamic with the KR and more alive sounding than the owners Jeff Rowland monos (older ones from their non-Class d days.)

A friend of mine had McIntosh MC501s on his Thiel CS3.7s, one of the more powerful amps on the market, and now uses 28 watt SET. The sound is much more alive but just as easy and effortless at his preferred listening level, which is fairly loud by my standards.

You and MF think very highly of darTZeel but after hearing them a number of times now, including at the designers home, I have to say I don't get what the fuss is about. Tonally there are better amps, dynamically as well and they still have a SS signature that I find subtly unpleasant compared to a tube signature. Maybe it is a good allrounder; however I guess that last bit is where the preference comes in the strongest because no amp has an invisible sonic signature...if there was one we would (hopefully) all have the same amps!! As long as there is not an amplifying device that is truly linear we will always have sonic signatures in our electronics.

 

[morricab]

I partially disagree, the KR sounded very nice on the studio grands on bloom and tone, but they did not (obviously) Hager the power and the control for large scale orchestral or choral. Christoph himself does not listen loudly nor does he listen to much orchestral. And yes, he probably remembers my face telling him how much I liked the KR, but I would definitely need more power to live with. For NAT and grands, one needs a bigger room to test. They might work properly, but wouldn't know. Yes, given a choice, I would take a KR or NAT but if they don't work there are many great powerful options.

Off to sleep now

True, it might not be the best for full orchestra at real life volumes. If that is your only material for judgement then I can see you might not be satisfied. Most of the time I listen to far below realistic volumes so I am more interested in a system that "holds it together" with wide dynamic material at well below realistic levels. Then you don't run into a problem with the peaks, you run into issues with the soft passages dropping out.

 

[morricab]

Fair enough. I personally have found the speakers to be more challenging than the electronics.

Maybe I have had good luck with speakers, I don't know but I have found it is easier to ruin good speakers with poor electronics than to get poor sound with great electronics and a so-so speaker (or at least one that was thought to be so-so).

 

[morricab]

Henk wasn't driving his Grands with SETs or tubes!

david

No, Henk has never driven his Apogees with tubes...despite my many attempts to convince him otherwise .

 

[morricab]

Mike,

All is a matter of taste and preference and we have opinions always bonded to them. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

Many people consider that as soon as an amplifier does not have the nasty characteristics of sound of some typical solid state it immediately sounds as tubes. I have found that most tube electronics when properly matched have some intrinsic characteristics that differ enough from the DartZeel sound to say DartZeeel does not sound like tubes. I currently have conrad johnson, audio research and jadis amplifiers in my room, as well as the NH108 and do not find it to have tube character. It is better than that - it has its own character!

Perhaps my nitpick is due to the desire of listening to equipment achieving its full potential. BTW, I also raise my eyebrows when people compare the 8550 to the NS18-NH108 combo ...

I enjoy a lot reading Michael Fremer on audio - mostly his comments and theoretical analysis. I have talked to him, he is a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic person. But surely he is not my reference concerning equipment compatibility.

The question I have for you is this: Do you find the signature of the darTZeel superior to your tube amps? Worse? Or is it just "different"? I personally don't get the sound of those product from an absolute standpoint...to me they don't deliver as realistic sound as one can get elsewhere from tubes or a properly done hybrid (KR Audio, Ypsilon, for example).

 

[morricab]

Mike's comment in the next post is what it's all about, for me ...



This is the crucial element for getting convincing sound - and that is totally a function of the electronics side of the system, particularly the amplifier. IME even relatively mediocre speakers "lift their game" to this level when the prior chain is up to it ...

My experience as well, great electronics will lift mediocre speakers to sometimes very satisfying levels. Mediocre electronics can ruin the sound of the best speakers.

 

[morricab]

I have often tried to listen to speakers i have not liked with various amplifiers. While they sounded better with some amps than others, they never sounded anything more than mediocre. On the other hand, techdas and similar TTs have made a lot of difference to systems.

I have had NAT magma special edition, magnetostat special edition, Jadis JPl, Jadis ja 100 and VAC 300b 30w in my room with the same speaker. The big difference always happened when my Sony sacd player was replaced by the Lampi.

You will be able to find many amps to drive the speakers you end up choosing.

I agree the source is a huge aspect as well. That is why I have stuck with my Silvaweld SWH 650 phonostage for so long...it just delivers wonderful analog sound! I would love to try a big Allnic someday at home though as they come from the same designer.

 

[bonzo75]

Ypsilon aelius has great tone but can struggle on the bass and dynamics depending on the speaker. Big Wilsons might be efficient but they are not effortless, it requires control and their drivers sound sluggish without the right push. I have heard the XLF with all Spectral, and with big VTL e1400, and the X2S2s with all lamm (Steve's) and Dagostino momentums.

 

[microstrip]

What is not clear to me from the information on the Bernings is whether they are parallel SET or push/pull. Do you know? (...)

Berning amplifiers have a special patented output stage - they claimed to be OTL because the output transformer does not operate in the audio bandwidth - in the OTL community debates about this particular subject were as combative as our analog versus digital! See the patent output-transformerless technology. Fortunately all it is said in the Berning 211 / 845 page is that it is based in the ZOTL output-transformerless technology , no reason to flames here.

If it was not for the fact they have a very limited distribution in Europe I would love to listen to them. People I respect have told me that the Berning amplifiers sound unbelievably good in the Magico Mini II's and can drive even Soundlabs perfectly.

 

[FrantzM]

My experience as well, great electronics will lift mediocre speakers to sometimes very satisfying levels. <snip>

Unique experience. Very different from my own.

 

[bonzo75]

I know someone who loved the lower watt berning did not like the higher powered version compared to ayon orthos.

I have heard the lower powered on focal utopia standamounts. Didn't compare so can't comment

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think this is simply another one of our hobby's many examples of subjective preferences.

For some people the speaker is more important and the speaker drives the amplifier decision. For others, the amplifier is more important and the amplifier drives the speaker decision.

As usual there is no right and no wrong, just different preferences.

 

[Zero000]

A few fun with amps and speakers shots...

Doge 6 CDP, W4S 500 Watt monos on bass, 211 amps on MRT, my original Duetta refurbs, Music First TVC, Prometheus TVC. For the hour it existed it seemed amazing. Really. Longer exposure and I suspect it would suck over a wider range of material and greater familiarity.

 

[Zero000]

Doge 6, Rowland 301 monos, Music First.

 

[Zero000]

Little known Apogee FK1 Perigee ribbon hybrid. The Rowan amps are interesting (not plugged in in the shots). 65 Watts at 8 Ohm.

But wait for it... 1 Kilowatt at 0.5 Ohms!!!!!!!!!!