Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[Ron Resnick]

Apogee sound is not soft. There is a lot of percussive energy due to the amp power that leads to the added density which stats lack. Soft (lack of power) where soft has a negative connotation, will not add the realism

I did not find the sound of Henk's Grands to be soft. I was attempting to follow up on David's point that, soft or not, I liked the sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Higher-fi has a pair of Grands on the Gon now for $68,000. Unrestored but condition "looks" very good.

Make an offer!

 

[FrantzM]

I believe we should move some posts to another thread... in the meantime the post about horn not being able to play ppppppp (super soft )is not my experience: Horns excel at dynamic reproduction. One may not like their sound or their imaging but it is hard to fault most any horns for the way they reproducing dynamics without compression. I'll stop there, IMO this discussion is deviating too much from the thread OP.

 

[Zero000]

Make an offer!

I'll leave that to you Ron!

 

[morricab]

20 to 50 watts just ain't enough for them Apogees!

I am struggling to understand why your perfectionism about amplifiers caused you to give up on your favorite speaker.

Because it seems, at least from my experience, that the electronics are the biggest stumbling block to getting realistic sound. It seems many here would agree here to a large degree.

 

[bonzo75]

Because it seems, at least from my experience, that the electronics are the biggest stumbling block to getting realistic sound. It seems many here would agree here to a large degree.

Yes but there are many choices available for realistic sound, especially if you have a turntable and a good speaker like the apogee

 

[morricab]

I believe we should move some posts to another thread... in the meantime the post about horn not being able to play ppppppp (super soft )is not my experience: Horns excel at dynamic reproduction. One may not like their sound or their imaging but it is hard to fault most any horns for the way they reproducing dynamics without compression. I'll stop there, IMO this discussion is deviating too much from the thread OP.

I am not faulting horns on dynamics, I own horns. But as one who owned a lot of different planars I can say that I hear better super soft with a few electrostats than horns. Perhaps it is the all from one panel, no crossover thing ? Crossovers eat small signals.

Now one single driver speaker I have heard that did soft very well indeed was the Decware HDT that uses a modified Fostex Fullrange driver. A multi-way horn has losses that direct connection does not.

 

[bonzo75]

The universums are good at soft

 

[morricab]

The universums are good at soft

I did not say horns are not good at soft! I will take your word on the Universum since I only heard it rather loud (Munich show).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Because it seems, at least from my experience, that the electronics are the biggest stumbling block to getting realistic sound. It seems many here would agree here to a large degree.

Fair enough. I personally have found the speakers to be more challenging than the electronics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Because it seems, at least from my experience, that the electronics are the biggest stumbling block to getting realistic sound. It seems many here would agree here to a large degree.

last year I had the privilege of enjoying the Berning 211/845 Monoblock amplifers in my room overnight. likely the finest sounding tube amplifiers I've heard. 60 watts with the 845 tube. you would think it would be fine on my easy load 96db, 6 ohm load MM7 main towers. it did not even have to do deep bass. it did sound realistic.

but there is realistic, and then there is REALISITIC!!!!

the solid state big dart 458's simply take things to a much more real and complete level......even while never indicating higher than 15 to 20 watt peaks on their front readouts.....mostly staying at '0' or '1' on the continuous readout. they bring an ease and authority to the sound in my large room which remove the sense of reproduction to a much greater extent. and the more the music gets 'complicated' the greater the difference. they 'scale' without even a thought to it.

electronics have to match the speaker and the room to approach 'suspension of disbelief'. otherwise the 'lack of ease' continually draws attention to itself.....when contrasted with amplification that can fully do the job.

amplifier sound is a matter of personal taste. but a system that can scale without stress is more real.

 

[microstrip]

last year I had the privilege of enjoying the Berning 211/845 Monoblock amplifers in my room overnight. likely the finest sounding tube amplifiers I've heard. 60 watts with the 845 tube. you would think it would be fine on my easy load 96db, 6 ohm load MM7 main towers. it did not even have to do deep bass. it did sound realistic.

but there is realistic, and then there is REALISITIC!!!!

the solid state big dart 458's simply take things to a much more real and complete level......even while never indicating higher than 15 to 20 watt peaks on their front readouts.....mostly staying at '0' or '1' on the continuous readout. they bring an ease and authority to the sound in my large room which remove the sense of reproduction to a much greater extent. and the more the music gets 'complicated' the greater the difference. they 'scale' without even a thought to it.

electronics have to match the speaker and the room to approach 'suspension of disbelief'. otherwise the 'lack of ease' continually draws attention to itself.....when contrasted with amplification that can fully do the job.

amplifier sound is a matter of personal taste. but a system that can scale without stress is more real.

Were you using the DartZeel preamplfiier? Although my experience was only with the previous version, I always found I was compromising its capabilities when using it with tube amplifiers. IMHO the DartZeel preamplifier should be used with DartZeel amplifiers.

And yes, I agree 100% - the electronics must match room and speaker. Many times people feel that their speakers are not adequate to a room just because they are using the wrong electronics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Were you using the DartZeel preamplfiier? Although my experience was only with the previous version, I always found I was compromising its capabilities when using it with tube amplifiers. IMHO the DartZeel preamplifier should be used with DartZeel amplifiers.

Rick Brown, the distributor for Berning, who delivered and set up the Berning 211/845 monoblocks in my room, thought that my dart pre synergized well with the Berning. he commented how quiet and dynamic it was in my system.

I refer to Mr. Fremer having used his old dart pre and now his new version of the dart pre with any number of tubed amplifiers without any sort of incompatibility comment like that. and even compared the dart pre to a few tubed preamps too. lots of users use the dart amps with a tube pre or the dart pre with tubed amps. the beauty of the darTZeel is that it does easily synergize with tube gear as it resembles the tube character in many ways.....but with lower noise and more linearity.

I respect that you have your experience. and that there can be synergies greater or lesser when matching any pre and amp.

hey, as my post above says, amplifier (and preamps too) preference is a matter of taste. no absolutes. YMMV.

And yes, I agree 100% - the electronics must match room and speaker. Many times people feel that their speakers are not adequate to a room just because they are using the wrong electronics.

 

[Steve Williams]

Isn't Rick Brown's amp made to his own specifications as he calls it HiFi One or something like that. Those amps seem to be making the rounds

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Isn't Rick Brown's amp made to his own specifications as he calls it HiFi One or something like that. Those amps seem to be making the rounds

HiFi One is the name of his company. he is the sole distributor for Berning. somehow he was involved directly with the development of this product as it is focused on his own group of customers who have high efficient speakers. this amp is many times matched with the big Avantgard Trio's.

the 211/845 amp is a great sounding amplifier. if I had a horn system or other very high efficiency system it would be at the top of my tube amplifier list.

 

[ddk]

I did not find the sound of Henk's Grands to be soft. I was attempting to follow up on David's point that, soft or not, I liked the sound.

Henk wasn't driving his Grands with SETs or tubes!

david

 

[microstrip]

Rick Brown, the distributor for Berning, who delivered and set up the Berning 211/845 monoblocks in my room, thought that my dart pre synergized well with the Berning. he commented how quiet and dynamic it was in my system.

I refer to Mr. Fremer having used his old dart pre and now his new version of the dart pre with any number of tubed amplifiers without any sort of incompatibility comment like that. and even compared the dart pre to a few tubed preamps too. lots of users use the dart amps with a tube pre or the dart pre with tubed amps. the beauty of the darTZeel is that it does easily synergize with tube gear as it resembles the tube character in many ways.....but with lower noise and more linearity.

I respect that you have your experience. and that there can be synergies greater or lesser when matching any pre and amp.

hey, as my post above says, amplifier (and preamps too) preference is a matter of taste. no absolutes. YMMV.

Mike,

All is a matter of taste and preference and we have opinions always bonded to them. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

Many people consider that as soon as an amplifier does not have the nasty characteristics of sound of some typical solid state it immediately sounds as tubes. I have found that most tube electronics when properly matched have some intrinsic characteristics that differ enough from the DartZeel sound to say DartZeeel does not sound like tubes. I currently have conrad johnson, audio research and jadis amplifiers in my room, as well as the NH108 and do not find it to have tube character. It is better than that - it has its own character!

Perhaps my nitpick is due to the desire of listening to equipment achieving its full potential. BTW, I also raise my eyebrows when people compare the 8550 to the NS18-NH108 combo ...

I enjoy a lot reading Michael Fremer on audio - mostly his comments and theoretical analysis. I have talked to him, he is a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic person. But surely he is not my reference concerning equipment compatibility.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

All is a matter of taste and preference and we have opinions always bonded to them. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

Many people consider that as soon as an amplifier does not have the nasty characteristics of sound of some typical solid state it immediately sounds as tubes. I have found that most tube electronics when properly matched have some intrinsic characteristics that differ enough from the DartZeel sound to say DartZeeel does not sound like tubes. I currently have conrad johnson, audio research and jadis amplifiers in my room, as well as the NH108 and do not find it to have tube character. It is better than that - it has its own character!

Perhaps my nitpick is due to the desire of listening to equipment achieving its full potential. BTW, I also raise my eyebrows when people compare the 8550 to the NS18-NH108 combo ...

I enjoy a lot reading Michael Fremer on audio - mostly his comments and theoretical analysis. I have talked to him, he is a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic person. But surely he is not my reference concerning equipment compatibility.

Micro,

I have lots to say to respond but I think maybe it's a bit OT and I don't want to 'further' derail this thread for our friendly give and take not related to the subject of the thread.....as much as I'd like to.

Mike

 

[microstrip]

Micro,

I have lots to say to respond but I think maybe it's a bit OT and I don't want to 'further' derail this thread for our friendly give and take not related to the subject of the thread.....as much as I'd like to.

Mike

OK, back on topic. There is still a lot to post on this thread main subjects!

 

[Zero000]

Post removed.