Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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You are correct - as I had seen two tubes in the NAT amplifier photos and read about class AB I assumed it was a push-pull amplifier - my comments and the referred threads addressed this type of amplifiers. I saw now it is a parallel single-ended.
Being an Levinson user it isn't hard to understand why. I owned one for a while. I've also heard it driving MBL 116Fs, where I wasn't so keen on it. It was the MBL owner that brought one round. Had to get one after that.
Micro, what is the practical relevance of the NATs SE2SEs triodes being parallel single ended 211s, rather than push-pull?
Does this make them more suitable to Apogees duties?
Does this make them more suitable to Apogees duties?
Check this out Marc, if you haven't already.
To this day I am not 100% sure whether my 211s are PSE or PP.
To this day I am not 100% sure whether my 211s are PSE or PP.
Justin, they stay because they obviously do some things very well, and your SS can't match them completely
Fascinating re application of SET/PSET to Apogees
Will keep an open mind, and if I do indeed end up with a pair (and I'm veering toward Duettas over Divas for ergonomic reasons), I can start with my 60W Class A1/100W Class A2 NATs SE2SEs, demo 120W NATs Transmitters SETetrodes, consider SS Gryphon Antileons as single amp or biamping with the NATs on the MRTWs
Fascinating re application of SET/PSET to Apogees
Will keep an open mind, and if I do indeed end up with a pair (and I'm veering toward Duettas over Divas for ergonomic reasons), I can start with my 60W Class A1/100W Class A2 NATs SE2SEs, demo 120W NATs Transmitters SETetrodes, consider SS Gryphon Antileons as single amp or biamping with the NATs on the MRTWs
We know that the main distortion spectra of a push-pull topology is quite different of that of a single ended amplifier, but I have little experience with SE's and Apogees, I can not be of help concerning your second question.
I have seen big powerful 500W SS amplifiers that could not drive properly some speakers and the same speakers driven with success to loud levels by 70W tubes, IMHO in this hobby we have more exceptions than rules.
One of the big mistakes audiophiles make (including many on this forum) is that high power = dynamics and therefore "live" sound. They think that compressed dynamics, which give a flat and boring sound, is solved by more power having been taught that compression occurs when one reaches the clipping point of the amp.
What seems to not be generally realized is that amps can sound compressed right from the first mW and it has to do with circuit topology and not power. I had an amp in the past that would sound "constipated" and the sound would not express regardless of the level. You always felt the urge to turn it up more sound the sound could get out...but it never did. This was an extreme case of an affliction from which most amps suffer.
The reason most amps don't sound live has nothing to do with power output and everything to do with circuit and power supply design.
On the right speakers (there are limits related to clipping with low power) a 2 watt SET will sound more alive and dynamically expressive (particularly for microdynamics) than pretty much any big SS or tube amp.
Not my experience. Within the constraints of speaker power compression ( In itself a serious and poorly understood issue) and of amplifier quality , I would just say it ain't so. Perhaps we should open a thread on this.
I think DDK has often said he has not found a high powered SS amp he likes...i hope i'm not taking that out of context.
I agree it would be good to read a new thread about amp design. Perhaps in the spirit of a here's WHY something happens as a result of the circuit design, power supply build, etc...and also the practical implications on the speaker of differing types and the speaker interface which i have read repeatedly (and reliably, i believe) is absolutely crucial to get right.
I agree it would be good to read a new thread about amp design. Perhaps in the spirit of a here's WHY something happens as a result of the circuit design, power supply build, etc...and also the practical implications on the speaker of differing types and the speaker interface which i have read repeatedly (and reliably, i believe) is absolutely crucial to get right.
Yes, we should have a thread on it, including also the speaker efficiency - an even less understood subject!
Actually Lloyd I was referring to both tube (100w Class A max) and ss (Class A, 150w max), I haven't heard anything beyond those power ratings that I can live with, in reality aside from the Lamm M1.2/M2.2 my sweet zone for amplifiers, tube or ss is from around 20 watts to 50 watts. As I mentioned earlier reason I gave up on Apogees was because no amplifier in that power range I know of can drive them to satisfactory levels.
david
Mid 90's db continuous and distortion free but its not just about sound pressure levels, you can get that from many amplifiers today but the sound quality isn't there with most. The best sound I achieved with the Divas was with two pairs of Lamm M2.1s, passive bi-amping but even that became boring in time, low powered SETs and Class A amps are so much richer sounding to me...
david
It came down to a choice Ron, in the end I went as far as I could go with the Apogees and it didn't quite get me there. Over a decade with them was long enough to know!
Edit- If you spend some time with a quality SET and the right speakers you'll know why.
david
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