Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[Ron Resnick]

Dear mcleodsd,

Welcome! Thank you very much for introducing yourself and for contributing to this thread!

I, for one, would be grateful for your detailed analysis and comments comparing the sound of the Grands to the sound of the Full Ranges. I appreciate that, of the necessity of the built-in woofer and tweeter amps in the Grands, your Grands set-up and your Full Ranges set-up were driven with different amplifiers.

But any impressions and contrasts you could provide comparing the Grands to the Full Ranges would be greatly appreciated by many people on this thread.

 

[Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS]

What is amazing is the history of Apogee speakers as they pass from owner to owner. I have been lucky enough to hear a great many stories of Apogee's, invariably involving several countries, in some cases all over the world. In many cases the speakers have outlived their owners, prized 'til the last moment. Also - the kind of people that typically own Apogee's are often intriguing themselves! Apogee's are not your typical production line articles, nor are their owners...

Stephen - at a guess you would probably have heard most all Apogee's?

 

[bonzo75]

What is amazing is the history of Apogee speakers as they pass from owner to owner. I have been lucky enough to hear a great many stories of Apogee's, invariably involving several countries, in some cases all over the world. In many cases the speakers have outlived their owners, prized 'til the last moment. Also - the kind of people that typically own Apogee's are often intriguing themselves! Apogee's are not your typical production line articles, nor are their owners...

Stephen - at a guess you would probably have heard most all Apogee's?

Graz, I have heard henk's grands, his FRs (with Rudeiger in Germany), an old diva and Scintilla, Christoph's studio grands, Florian's grands, a couple of UK duettas including Justin's, and Rich Murray's restored duettas which are owned by Lissnr. Also duettas at Henk's. Still have to listen to a nice restored diva and a scintilla. Also I know there is a Synergy in my backyard, being driven by a Rowland, I think, but don't know the owner. If you are still in touch with the owner, please ask him if I can visit him and let me know by PM, thanks

 

[Zero000]

He's talking about the chap with the red Synergy's, Graz. I've met him as he is a friend of the silver Synergy's you built and were at the London show. I had the silver Synergy owner's business card (EDIT long since lost which is why I didn't go), but never actually went round for a listen, even though I had an invite. They both live close to each other Ked.

 

[Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS]

Bonzo, Justin - you should visit those guys for an Apogee Synergy 1.5 / Synergy 1.5.2 experience, they are both great dudes, with good hifi's, good music, and a pub near their houses out in the country! Well worth a visit on all counts.

Both Apogee Synergy types are similar efficiency, and can be driven to full output with 50w of tubes or ss power, so able to give a good demo of amp sound quality on an equal basis. The amps ideally would need a 2 ohm nominal tap for best results, I ran some Synergy 1.5.2's here for a couple of years on 45w DXT's, a good match...

A special request - please don't post pictures of the backs of those Synergy's, for the prowling mimics

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, Justin - you should visit those guys for an Apogee Synergy 1.5 / Synergy 1.5.2 experience, they are both great dudes, with good hifi's, good music, and a pub near their houses out in the country! Well worth a visit on all counts.

Both Apogee Synergy types are similar efficiency, and can be driven to full output with 50w of tubes or ss power, so able to give a good demo of amp sound quality on an equal basis. The amps ideally would need a 2 ohm nominal tap for best results, I ran some Synergy 1.5.2's here for a couple of years on 45w DXT's, a good match...

A special request - please don't post pictures of the backs of those Synergy's, for the prowling mimics

Graz, both of us don't have their contact. If you do please let us know.

 

[Zero000]

I've just asked Jon for contact details.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Two final things - the Grands sound wonderful with vinyl; and most importantly, Henk really is the go-to man for restorations and after sales attention. I could not recommend him strongly enough - he is enthusiastic; honest; imaginative; reliable and his attention to detail is really first-class.

Welcome to WBF - it is great to read so many opinions about historical speakers.

I am particularly interested in your comment about vinyl on the Grands - do you feel that they are not ideal for digital?

 

[bonzo75]

Welcome to WBF - it is great to read so many opinions about historical speakers.

I am particularly interested in your comment about vinyl on the Grands - do you feel that they are not ideal for digital?

Henk runs his Grands digital only (probably the only set up Ron has reviewed on digital).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Henk runs his Grands digital only (probably the only set up Ron has reviewed on digital).

It definitely was the only set-up I have reviewed on digital.

From my point of view -- with Krell transistor amps powering the woofer cones and the tweeter; transistor amps driving the woofer panel and the midrange ribbon; 52 op-amps in the Apogee cross-over electronics; ICs in the control electronics; digital displays; Henk's digital source and DAC -- the set-up could not have been more counter to my general audio philosophy. But for a few hours I did not care at all -- the Grands sounded amazing.

 

[microstrip]

It definitely was the only set-up I have reviewed on digital.

From my point of view -- with Krell transistor amps powering the woofer cones and the tweeter; transistor amps driving the woofer panel and the midrange ribbon; 52 op-amps in the Apogee cross-over electronics; ICs in the control electronics; digital displays; Henk's digital source and DAC -- the set-up could not have been more counter to my general audio philosophy. But for a few hours I did not care at all -- the Grands sounded amazing.

Perhaps they sounded amazing, but reading your report on Mono and Stereo, I would not attribute your finding of lack of detail and air to digital, but to the ICs and the amplification. Digital can have plenty of air and high frequency detail when properly amplified and matched with convenient cables.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Perhaps they sounded amazing, but reading your report on Mono and Stereo, I would not attribute your finding of lack of detail and air to digital, but to the ICs and the amplification. . . .

I think my whole thing about not hearing treble frequencies and air was an anomaly due to listening position height versus tweeter height or angle.

 

[bonzo75]

I think my whole thing about not hearing treble frequencies and air was an anomaly due to listening position height versus tweeter height or angle.

Hi Ron, I checked second time. Sitting down or standing up should not affect treble. You heard what you heard. I did not find it dark. Yes, I agree with Micro that more expensive electronics and cables would increase resolution, but the speaker is just so good that even with free cables and electronics less than the cost of many amplifiers on WBF, it sounds so good.

I have separately mentioned on a small post on old Divas that I was not involved at all with the digital, but it sounded one of the best systems I have heard when vinyl was played (acoustic solid one to one TT (used price 3 - 4k), Kuzma 4p arm and A90 cart, some unknown phono)). I will wait for mcleodsd to post his thoughts before posting mine, why quality jumps up drastically on vinyl. That said, I decided I loved the Grands, Duettas, and FRs on digital. Those Divas were playing with MF amps.

 

[Zero000]

Play digital for a long time. Play a good quality record. Get amazed. Wonder why you have been listening to digital. Hours later, a duff pressing or two, and you know why. Hell you can even see why. The bass panels visibly show you what you are listening to bears little resemblance to accuracy. The complexity of the bass panel ripples/movement looks like a mess compared to the digital version of the same track.

You can see it in the MRTs too, to a lesser extent.

It can sound quite a bit better but that isn't because it is accurate. Precisely the reverse, I think.

 

[bonzo75]

Let's not make this an analog vs digital thread, many around

 

[Zero000]

Let's not make this an analog vs digital thread, many around

There is no intention of doing that. I am just stating what the speaker is telling you visually. It is far more obvious than with cones.

 

[microstrip]

Let's not make this an analog vs digital thread, many around

Debating the formats was not my idea. However, knowing how a speaker handles the formats seems a mandatory issue in the XXI century ...

 

[Zero000]

However, knowing how a speaker handles the formats seems a mandatory issue in the XXI century ...

Cone subs can show huge excursions with vinyl. But the Apogee bass panel will show you visibly what is happening at higher frequencies when shinning light directly on the panels.

You should use a sub 20Hz filter with vinyl on full range Apogee ribbons to protect the bass panel from clumsy stylus touchdowns and warped records played at high SPL. In my opinion, and only if your phono stage doesn't do it anyway, that is.

Using a 15Hz signal generator, I can tell you that the Duetta bass panel not only responds to it, it does so BIG STYLE. So care is advisable.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Haha
Digital v analog rears it's tired old head in the umpteenth thread running
Justin, at Munich I watched the bass drivers of the €200k Goebel speakers pump away when the Kronos tt was playing in the non music lead-in grooves and inter-track spaces
It had absolutely NO bearing on analog being FAR superior to digital (where of course this pumping wasn't present)
"Correct" is not the same as "authentic"

 

[bonzo75]

Debating the formats was not my idea. However, knowing how a speaker handles the formats seems a mandatory issue in the XXI century ...

No it was a valid question, I misunderstood Justin's previous reply