Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[spiritofmusic]

So guys, re Divas which can be single amped/passive, or biamped/passive or active
Can we go thru the pros and cons of
1-passively running Divas from one amp
2-biamping Divas passively
3-biamping Divas actively ie preamp to active crossover which splits signal to bass ribbons amp, and signal to second amp which then drives the filter which splits signal separately to mids and treble ribbons
My take is that at the very least going active biamping will increase the efficiency of the Divas, especially useful if like me you want to use SETs on the mids and treble ribbons like Kip and Florian have done

 

[Ron Resnick]

Who is using Graz ribboned Full Range speakers and bi-amping them passively -- with a passive low-pass filter for the woofer panel and a passive crossover between the midrange ribbon and the tweeter ribbon?

 

[Zero000]

I've just ordered (and received) 8m of Furutech interconnect cable. I'm waiting for the RCA plugs to arrive.

The reason I have done this is that whenever I have bi-amped tube and solid state I have done it with interconnect cables that are so dissimilar in nature sonically there's not really any chance of a good blend. Whilst the tube and SS amps I have are dissimilar sonically, certainly when driving the speakers single handedly, a better chance of a good result will come with the same interconnect cable, though I'm sure some may dispute this.

When I have had a good play, I will report in detail what I've found. I know it isn't full range or Diva, but the principle is the same (pretty much). I'll bi-amp both ways round i.e. tubes on the bass, SS on the MRTs and vice versa.

Just some fun, really, plus the desire to easily be able to swap between all SS and all valve without messing too much with cables i.e. have it pretty much permanently plugged in.

My preamp has two sets of outputs and I can volume match drivers with pink noise, the Accuphase volume controls, and a test mic.

If the results are worth hearing I'll invite Kedar round... but only if the results are worth him hearing it and he is interested.

 

[Zero000]

BTW don't expect anything anytime soon. It'll be at least a few weeks before I've had a really good play.

 

[PKN]

Hello,

I'm new here on this particular forum, I was pointed here by someone who had read the thread about the Apogee Grand's portrayed here. I'd like to give a bit more information on these speakers.

As mentioned early on, those speakers came from someone in Indonesia. The original owner purchased that pair new in Jakarta in 1992 or 1993, they were powered by 2 Krell KSA 250 amps and a Krell cd player. and all Siltech interlinks,custom ordered from siltech to suit the needs of the owner. The original dedicated studio room was 10mx7.5m. The studio had it's own dedicated electrical group, and low noise 4 hp ceiling AC unit.

When in 1998 the owner moved home, the electrical capacity and available space in the new home were not sufficient to properly house the setup, and so the setup was dismantled, the speakers and all internal amps, were all sealed in special bags to preserve them from the high humidity the country is known for during rainy season.

Following this, he could not get used to the sound of other setups, and basically left his beloved hobby for many years. As the years passed, and the speakers would have needed ribbon repairs (one was damaged) he looked into getting them fixed, but the closest authorized repair service for those speakers was in Australia, and sending them would be 'blind' meaning no real cost estimate beyond the sending itself. in all, it would be expensive. He did ponder getting them fixed. but eventually opted not to, and offered them on line 'as is'. This is when they moved hands, if my memory isn't wrong, he even gave another set of Apogee full range speakers for free together with the Grand. same thing, they would have needed repairs as well.

Fast forward to 2012, He picked up the hobby again, and is currently working towards getting Gryphon pendragon speakers.

I like to know the history of things, I figured some of you would have been interested as well, those Grand's have been places, have played for top musicians and have given many people a taste of excellence. I'm glad to see they still work.

Signed, the son of the original owner.

Patrick.

 

[bonzo75]

Hey Patrick, thank your dad for initiating the process that let us listen to these masterpieces. And he had the Full Range too wow. Your dad needs to visit Holland sometime to hear how wonderful his speakers sound.

 

[PKN]

That may well happen at some point. I have to correct myself by the way, my dad bought the Grand in 1996, he used the Krells to run the Full range before acquiring the Grand.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Welcome, Patrick!

Thank you for writing!

Which speakers did you like better: the Full Ranges or the Grands?

 

[PKN]

Welcome, Patrick!

Thank you for writing!

Which speakers did you like better: the Full Ranges or the Grands?

Good question Ron, unfortunately I am unable to answer this question as I haven't heard the Full range speakers myself. you see, my father is an expatriate working in Indonesia, but I grew up and studied in Europe, and didn't go to Indonesia before 1996, you may have noticed that the Full range was put aside by 1996. So while I am capable of telling you of the incredible wow factor of the Grands, I can't do the same for the full range. That being said, my father is an even bigger audiophile than I am, and would never have switched if the Grands were not a staggering improvement over the Full range. It's simply too much money for minor improvements.

Which is the one reason he is now going for the Gryphon Pendragons. It's hard to listen to conventional systems once you know what is possible with ribbon speakers.

But as for me, I belong to the very small group of people lucky enough to have been casually listening to that system. I guess in a large way, it has shaped how I look at the reproduction of sound, and it's become the definitive benchmark for anything I listen to.

 

[bonzo75]

What system do you have, Patrick? Did you follow in your father's footsteps?

 

[PKN]

I would like to, but as all of us are well aware, the price for ultra high end is, well...ultra high as well.

I listen to B&W 802D's and two Bryston 7D mono amps. and use a Pioneer BDP-91 reference player.

I get to listen to what my father has as well, and while that is a reality check, it's okay, I still get to enjoy it all.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks, if you are looking for an elder brother, your father can adopt Ron, who can adopt me, and we can keep that system being passed down

 

[PKN]

As it stands, I can, for obvious reasons, only accept younger brothers, as I want to be the first in line haha. You'd have to be below 36

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo is taking advice from Benjamin Button as we speak

 

[bonzo75]

Lol

 

[morricab]

Not correct. Ideally all frequencies should seem to come from one point. However our perceptual apparatus works differently in the lower frequencies where it take us, according to research upward of 50 ms to integrate and recognize a 50 Hz signal. Thus for low bass (<100 Hz) distributing L.F sources according to some rather definitive researches from Toole, Welti, Devantier, Geddes, etc provide a smoother response in the bass by mitigating peak and valleys.

I will address my other point in Ron's other thread ... for a speaker with 3 panels and tower subs ...

Not for a line source...the sound pattern is cylindrical rather than spherical.

 

[morricab]

Hello everyone! It has been a long time since I've jumped on any forum discussions, mostly because I've just been so darned happy with the sound of my system the last few years that I'm not on the hunt for any changes. When I was informed that a picture of my dedicated listening room and a discussion of my system was actively in progress, I checked it out, and am now here to share some thoughts and updates. Of course, none of my musical bliss would have been possible without the wonderful work of Graz with his knowledge and hard work on keeping Apogee loudspeakers alive and well, and I have to thank Rich Murry, too, for rebuilding my FRs to such a lovely level (though he now says mine represent the bottom of the heap compared to what he produces now!). ;-)

First, I think the biggest positive change in my system has been the construction of my dedicated listening space. Its internal dimensions are 18 feet W X 29 feet D by 9.5 feet H, and the position of the speakers and room treatments also made an enormous, positive impact. I am thoroughly pleased with the results of this room after I hired Bob Hodas to assist me with these items and layout.

The other positive changes come from the amplification and crossover now used. I discovered NAT amplifiers during an audition a few years ago, and simply could not believe how the same track played at the same db level through the same system could sound so wildly different by just changing amplifiers. It was an unforgettable experience, and as a result, I am solidly in the SET camp, impressed with their uncanny ability recreate nuanced musical cues, natural tone and ambience that is breathtakingly realistic, in my opinion. Because my amplifiers, the SE2SE, are parallel single-ended with GE 211 tubes, I have seen no struggling with driving the midrange and tweeters--even directly through an active crossover when I tried that. However, I have settled on keeping the stock interface box of the Full ranges for the MRTW ribbons, so the impedance the NAT amps now see is very reasonable. Again, all I can say is that their presentation is magical, and I treasure them as a key part of my system.

By the way, the amplifiers I use to drive the bass ribbons--and here I do drive them directly, bypassing the interface box--are fully refurbished Krell KMA-160 mono blocks. I've tried a variety of tube amplifiers in a variety of configurations on the bass, but the results were always disappointing to my ears. Yes, some people will never accept solid state amplifiers in their systems, and I get their bias against them--after all, I just admitted how enchanting the NATs are--but to complete the most realistic picture of music in my room for my tastes, I have found these Krell amplifiers to do the job admirably. These are different sounding than the Krell FBP 350Mcx mono blocks I used to own for the Scintillas I used to own, and I prefer their sonic signature over them, too.

I used to use the stock passive crossover in my system, but a very sharp technician and recording engineer I know coaxed me into trying an active crossover design of his, and I was extremely impressed with the improvement in transparency I heard, so I had him build an active crossover for me, (controversially, perhaps) keeping the same crossover frequency between the drivers as the stock passive crossover. It is a lovely addition.

My front end remains relatively unchanged, and is sure to make some people smile and others grimace, but I love every note that the gear produces. From source to amps, it consists of my fully restored Studer A80 RC MK II with stock electronics (and no dedicated tape preamp which, as another recording engineer once told me, seemed to work pretty well for many of the records we treasure!). It remains my favorite source by a large margin. Next, my Micro Seiki RX-5000 turntable continues its daily trouble-free use, and it continues to imply it will live long beyond me. Though I have two tonearms mounted on it (a Basis Vector MK 3 and the Thomas Schick 12-inch), I have discovered I far prefer the Schick and use it almost exclusively. Of course, this could be that my switch to a fully refurbished (by John Wright in England) Decca SC4E cartridge for daily listening so outperforms my Ortofon A90 cartridge that I will never go back to a modern design. If you've never had the pleasure of literally being startled by the dynamics of a vintage Decca cartridge, then you owe it to yourself to give it a try. It's a perfect match for the speed of Apogee ribbons. My phono preamp remains the venerable BAT VK-P10SE with SuperPak and some interesting NOS tubes. It also remains a delight, and after a shootout with some other heavy hitters last year, to my ears at least, I'm not sure I'll find anything to replace it.

On the digital front, I have added a Mac mini which plays ripped and downloaded files from a Synology 1515+ NAS remotely located in my house and connected to the system via Ethernet. The music player software I have settled on, after trying several, including Roon, is the brilliant Audirvana 2. No metadata issues here! I just moved from a Mytek Stereo 192 DSD DAC to their new Brooklyn DAC, and agree with most users of this piece that ambient cues are improved, and its ability to now play DXD, DSD256 and MQA files is frosting on the cake. Though I will always be an analog fan at heart, this combination and the clear view of every piece of digital music on a 12.9-inch iPad Pro makes for an intoxicating experience.

All of these sources are fed into a BAT VK-31SE preamp which to my ears still sounds wonderful all these years on.

Since the view of the Apogee Full Ranges has already been posted in this thread, I thought I'd include another view, this time looking back from the speakers towards the back of the room and seating area. I hope this answers some of the questions members have posted, and I am thrilled to see such interest in Apogee loudspeakers here. They have impressed me beyond words, and I feel very lucky to own them.

Kip

View attachment 28278

Hi Kip,
Great to hear you are still jamming with the full-range and NATs (at least on the mid-tweet). I tried a Krell KSA150 all those years ago on my Apogees and didn't like what it did to the sound in terms of bass texture. It sure had slam but no finesse. I am wondering if the NATs compensate that with the nice upper bass harmonics that were simply missing when I drove my speaker with a Krell (full range passively). What are you using for an active xover?

I now am quite happy with my Odeon horns. I used to use the NAT Symbiosis SE but realized after some time that this single ended hybrid is not the same as the all tube SETs from NAT and sold it. However, I am now using the NAT Plasma preamp and that is one you should put up against your BAT...it has dynamics to die for. I am considering a return to either KR Audio or NAT in the near future as the other SETs I have now are good but not quite there. I also have the rather amazing Aries Cerat in for review at the moment. That is a company you should be on the lookout for if you ever decide to upgrade. Their Diana integrated (what I am reviewing) is doing things with dynamics and dynamic shading that I haven't heard done better elsewhere.

 

[mcleodsd]

Hello,

It is interesting to read PKN's note about Henk's Apogee Grands. Indeed, much of the story of the Grands in Indonesia is correct. I bought the Grands and the FR's from the owner in Indonesia and arranged for their shipment to Henk in Holland. To be accurate, the FR's were not exactly free but the negotiation for the two was largely driven by my wish to get the Grands. I remember being concerned about the cost of restoration given that they had been stored in a very humid environment. The whole process of packaging and shipment was like a military exercise and was both expensive and difficult. Henk had to buy and install a special crane structure to get them off the truck and into his workshop.

Henk and I both felt that most of the electronics would need to be replaced after so many years of storage and indeed that was the case although many ideas for restoration might have replaced components anyway. Many of the components were not available of course so finding replacements was quite a challenge. It became clear through the process, primarily undertaken by Henk, that the Grands were very special. So much so that Henk decided that they should replace his extremely impressive FR's and so that was that.

I have owned many Apogees over the years including original Duetta Sigs powered by Counterpoint Amps and then with a pair of valve hybrids hand-built by Allan Wright; then tri-amped Graz rebuilt Divas; then Henk restored and redesigned 1 ohm Scintillas bi-amped with Jeff Rowland monos. All of these have gone now largely due to family pressures and teenage girls and their friends doing unspeakable (pardon the pun) things to them. I do still have a beautiful pair of Caliper Sigs which are truly musical but not really in the same league as the other family members. In my humble opinion, Henk's Grands are in the top 5 speakers I have ever had the chance to listen to. They do have a different sound to the FR's virtue of their woofer set up but the overall impact is very special and very enveloping. I have enjoyed many bottles of single malt enjoying them. Like most if not all Apogee owners who've tried other things and regretted it, it may well be that I go back to Henk with an order for a FR sometime in the future - the Grands are really simply out of my reach in terms of size and probably can only be owned by people who are either bachelors (I'm assuming that ladies are too sensible to invest $100K+ in speakers) or have extremely large houses with dedicated music rooms. Two final things - the Grands sound wonderful with vinyl; and most importantly, Henk really is the go-to man for restorations and after sales attention. I could not recommend him strongly enough - he is enthusiastic; honest; imaginative; reliable and his attention to detail is really first-class.

Hello,

I'm new here on this particular forum, I was pointed here by someone who had read the thread about the Apogee Grand's portrayed here. I'd like to give a bit more information on these speakers.

As mentioned early on, those speakers came from someone in Indonesia. The original owner purchased that pair new in Jakarta in 1992 or 1993, they were powered by 2 Krell KSA 250 amps and a Krell cd player. and all Siltech interlinks,custom ordered from siltech to suit the needs of the owner. The original dedicated studio room was 10mx7.5m. The studio had it's own dedicated electrical group, and low noise 4 hp ceiling AC unit.

When in 1998 the owner moved home, the electrical capacity and available space in the new home were not sufficient to properly house the setup, and so the setup was dismantled, the speakers and all internal amps, were all sealed in special bags to preserve them from the high humidity the country is known for during rainy season.

Following this, he could not get used to the sound of other setups, and basically left his beloved hobby for many years. As the years passed, and the speakers would have needed ribbon repairs (one was damaged) he looked into getting them fixed, but the closest authorized repair service for those speakers was in Australia, and sending them would be 'blind' meaning no real cost estimate beyond the sending itself. in all, it would be expensive. He did ponder getting them fixed. but eventually opted not to, and offered them on line 'as is'. This is when they moved hands, if my memory isn't wrong, he even gave another set of Apogee full range speakers for free together with the Grand. same thing, they would have needed repairs as well.

Fast forward to 2012, He picked up the hobby again, and is currently working towards getting Gryphon pendragon speakers.

I like to know the history of things, I figured some of you would have been interested as well, those Grand's have been places, have played for top musicians and have given many people a taste of excellence. I'm glad to see they still work.

Signed, the son of the original owner.

Patrick.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks, great post. Speaking of cranes, I wish Florian would put his pics here, he has transported them through 4 houses, including the first time he and his friends picked them up and drove them back for 14 hours on a long truck. I don't think it's easy to own grands unless without such extra ordinary initiative and effort as you grand owners have shown. Or a lot of money to have a ready made grand installed in the living room when you come back in the evening

 

[PKN]

Fairly easy to own and place, originally anyway, with the company not defunct that is. A truck delivered the components (the heaviest parts being around 150kg) a group of helpers would take out the parts, from where people from the dealer would take over, they had instructions from Apogee on how to place them. basically reassemble on site. The main difference between you guys, and how we had them, is we had the original packaging with handles.