Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[kipdent]

Fantastic feedback, Kip! Do you have a screen that comes down from the ceiling? Is that what that appears to be in the photo? And a trap door above the couch holding the projector?

Thanks! Yes, you can see a retractable screen in the first picture posted earlier, and you can see the motorized trap door for the projector the second picture, but these items get pretty dusty! I simply am a music fan, and rarely fire up the video system.

 

[LL21]

Thanks! Yes, you do see a retractable screen and motorized trap door for the projector, but these items get pretty dusty! I simply am a music fan, and rarely fire up the video system.

Very cool! Beautifully done! We just did our living room, so appreciate those touches!

 

[bonzo75]

Kip, great stuff.

Do you prefer to sit in the sofa or the chair?

What's the distance between the speakers, and from them to the sofa and to the chair?

Kedar

 

[kipdent]

Kip, great stuff.

Do you prefer to sit in the sofa or the chair?

What's the distance between the speakers, and from them to the sofa and to the chair?

Kedar

The distances Bob Hodas arrived at for this particular room ended up being best with 86 inches between the MR drivers, 86 inches to the listening position of the head in the center, front row chair from the MR drivers, and the distance to the wall behind the speakers is 70 inches (on average, since they are canted). The central position on the couch is actually my second-favorite location in the room, and that is about 158 inches from the MR drivers.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Kip, I have your very NAT SE2SEs on my high efficiency Zu speakers, and like you absolutely love them, but Apogee fever is rising, and I am considering running them on Graz restored Divas, or maybe Duettas. I have a space somewhat larger in plan area than your room, but with descending gable eaves meaning I can't stretch to the height of FRs, but can just to Divas
You are just the man to give an opinion on trying to run tubes on the bass ribbons. Did you at all look at the more powerful 120W NAT Transmitters or even the 170W Magmas? Or does the almost infinite capacity for being driven of FR and Diva bass ribbons mean that all tubes, whether robust and grippy NAT triodes, or even overly powerful VTL push pull, just not appropriate? Just what is missing with tubes on the bass ribbons?

Secondly, just how are you able to seamlessly blend pretty full on SS with NATs?
Is it a case that the bass ribbons just have to be über driven and the whole sound as a result comes together, or is it more a function of the NATs, ie that they are more fulsome and grippy than most other triodes and as such blend with Krells much more naturally anyhow?

 

[cjfrbw]

So glad to see you posting, Kip. That relieves me of "proxy duty" for your great system. You also put on it's ear the notion that tubes and SS can't ever mix in a Apogee setup.

 

[kipdent]

You are just the man to give an opinion on trying to run tubes on the bass ribbons. Did you at all look at the more powerful 120W NAT Transmitters or even the 170W Magmas? Or does the almost infinite capacity for being driven of FR and Diva bass ribbons mean that all tubes, whether robust and grippy NAT triodes, or even overly powerful VTL push pull, just not appropriate? Just what is missing with tubes on the bass ribbons?

Secondly, just how are you able to seamlessly blend pretty full on SS with NATs?
Is it a case that the bass ribbons just have to be über driven and the whole sound as a result comes together, or is it more a function of the NATs, ie that they are more fulsome and grippy than most other triodes and as such blend with Krells much more naturally anyhow?

My path to choosing the Krells for the bass ribbon was a long one, but the biggest reason is that I discovered the bass panels sound so much more natural when being driven directly, and frankly, I'm not sure any tube amp, regardless of manufacturer or power rating, would really like doing that. But before this discovery, I did try using the interface box with powerful tube amps, though none of the big NATs. The ones I did try (Mastersound and Audio Research) never sounded as good through the interface box as the Krells did in direct mode. So, I've settled on the setup I have, and am very happy.

I think "seamless blend" is in the ear of the listener, of course, and pretty hard to fully achieve outside of a full range horn or something, but I have been complimented more than once on how the drivers seem to disappear in my system. I think the biggest factor here is the room, room treatments and speaker positioning. Musical material at 350Hz and below never seems to stand out or scream "solid state" when playing, so it's a combination of the speaker's design, the equipment, mostly the room, and a little luck, no doubt. If you ever want to escape London (my wife has relatives in Upminster!) to San Diego for the weather, you are welcome to come listen for yourself to see if you could be happy with this sound.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Thanks! Yes, you can see a retractable screen in the first picture posted earlier, and you can see the motorized trap door for the projector the second picture, but these items get pretty dusty! I simply am a music fan, and rarely fire up the video system.

Get the bluray of Pat Metheny The Way Up Live or anything from Umphreys McGee and you might leave that screen down a little more often.

 

[kipdent]

Get the bluray of Pat Metheny The Way Up Live or anything from Umphreys McGee and you might leave that screen down a little more often.

The issue there for me is I have isolated the audio system from the video system, and so just have cheesy surround sound, in-wall speakers for video. But I surely enjoy listening to "The Way Up" album through the Apogees!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Kip, when you say you drive the bass ribbons "direct" with the Krells, do you mean out of an active crossover, or bypassing crossover here utilising that only for mids/treble?

 

[kipdent]

By "direct," I mean the speaker cables of the bass ribbon are directly connected to the outputs of the Krell amps. In the original design, an interface box could be used which created an easier impedance load for an amplifier driving the bass panels. I don't use the interface box between the Krell amps and the bass panels.

 

[kipdent]

So glad to see you posting, Kip. That relieves me of "proxy duty" for your great system. You also put on it's ear the notion that tubes and SS can't ever mix in a Apogee setup.

Carl! Great to chat again. Well, I don't know if I've "put on its ear" the notion that you can't mix tubes and SS on Apogees; all I can say is I really enjoy what I hear.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Kip, is this the equivalent of passive crossover to the bass ribbons, or no crossover at all?
And what sort of crossover to the mids/treble ribbons?
My shortlist atm for SS to Divas bass ribbons is Gryphon Antileons and Bryston (as suggested by Lloyd LL21), Sanders Magtech monos, Aesthetix Atlas/AVA Van Alstines monos hybrids

 

[thekong]

Hi Marc, I think you should take a careful read on the Pass XVR-1’s manual to get a better understanding on active Xover, and what you are getting yourself into!

It is way more involving in the user’s part comparing to passive Xover. That is also what I talked about when mentioning the different Xover slopes and frequencies.

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/manual/xvr1-om.pdf

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, that's put me right off my breakfast
I presume you're going to tri amp your FRs via this unit? Or the First Watt?
So, for someone like me, not adept at any of this, and with no expert back up, how would I negotiate biamping Divas?

 

[henk]

Hmm, that's put me right off my breakfast
I presume you're going to tri amp your FRs via this unit? Or the First Watt?
So, for someone like me, not adept at any of this, and with no expert back up, how would I negotiate biamping Divas?

Marc,
What do you mean, you're not adept?
You have the only instruments that are vital to the task: Your ears.
The rest is really not that important. And any-one with a reasonably technical back-ground can walk you through the pitfalls of dialling in the active filter.

In the end, it is all in the listening!

 

[Zero000]

Listen to speakers. Buy speakers. Plug stuff in. Simples.

 

[bonzo75]

It all starts with one amp. Then there are two. Then the crossover and the shift. If you want to biamp that way it's a project, else just get two of the same amps and start with a simple crossover

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, maybe you can put me in touch with someone in the UK who knows Apogees and the Pass or First crossovers, and knows how to get a good sound
I'm not sure there are that many
In the meantime, I'll stress about the prospect LOL

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you very much for your detailed posts about your system, Kip!