Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[christensenleif@msn.com]

One thing about horn loudspeakers in general, and Avantgardes in particular, which has always puzzled me is why they are so often seen close to the front wall. As a planar person, I want to pull speakers into the room at least five feet to start with, and after that as far as possible.

I remain baffled to this minute why the Trios Kedar and I auditioned at the Avantgarde factory in Frankfurt in 2015 were so close to the front wall in a gigantic (something like 40 foot long) room.

The first thing I noticed when I walked into Todd's room is how far from the front wall his speakers are positioned. And guess what (although this is no surprise to me)? His system has the best depth and the best sound-staging I have ever heard from a horn loudspeaker system.

I have heard over a dozen different Avantgarde systems in private homes and shows: sometimes bright; sometimes brighter; sometimes bright AF! When KeithR wanted to buy Duos I told him I would endorse that purchase only if he matched them with Viva Aurora mono amplifiers (gorgeous, lush-sounding SETs).

Todd is an Avantgarde whisperer, because his Duo GT system (with iTron) at the Southwest Audio Fest this weekend had no edginess and no brightness that wasn't on the recording. Similarly his home system had no edginess and no brightness that wasn't on the recording.

Todd's room is 28 feet long and 22 feet wide. I think the physical width of a listening room is directly proportional to the realism and the perceived width of the soundstage of recorded music.

The system gave me the sensation of it being very sensitive, very responsive and meticulously finely-tuned -- I want to use a race car as an analogy. I had the sense that the system has limitless dynamic capability and limitless headroom. It feels like there's a whole lot of horsepower under the "hood."

The rolling waves of drums in the last movement of Reference Recordings' Symphony Fantastique I think was the most detailed and textured and realistic I've ever heard that recording reproduced. I think my Gryphon bass towers themselves get the texture and the detail similarly correct, but I think the room isn't large enough to let the waves of sound dissipate and escape without bunching up on each other and blurring some of the detail. There was no blurring whatsoever of anything in Todd's room. There was this sensation of unlimited sonic ceiling.

Playing Adele's "Someone Like You" pressurized the room in a way that I did not recognize from other listening rooms.

Todd's reproduction of Black Sabbath "Paranoid" was the most exciting I've ever heard that track in my life. I think the iTron amplification equips the horn system with incredible speed and dynamics.

Todd's room plus system is easily one of the best systems I've ever heard in my life. The precision and meticulousness and perfectionism with which Todd has set up the system, and which he has chronicled for us over the last year, is very apparent when listening in the room.

In terms of my personal subjective preferences, do I wish there were tubes in one or more places in Todd's system? Yes, I do. But I now think there really is something to the iTron, which of course was designed specifically for Avantgarde horns.

This room plus system is another world-class achievement! Congratulations Todd and Sally!

Thank you very much for hosting me today!

what most people don´t realise; the Trio´s rearchambers are ventilated with a foam insert behind the driver and there are narrow slits in the rear abs cover of the driver housings....
at least it was in the old Trios and they responded positively as Ron describes to being moved away from rear wall by at least 3feet

 

[Chop]

I agree, I have old Trios and they do respond well to being kept away from front walls.

I have a question for you Ron: I realise that Todds Trios are much newer than mine and its a very different room but I'm curious how toed in they are. At the listening position can you see the tweeter horns straight on or can you see any of the inside of the tweeter horn tubes? In other words, are they pointing directly at your head or your shoulders?

Thanks

 

[Ron Resnick]

And liked apogees and analysis audio.


I find it to have the best soundstage. Far bigger, and more real, and changing, than other types of speakers. Of course I refer to the good horns and not the poor ones, and with good recordings, as the good ones do not force a soundstage of their own. In fact I find Devore Orangutans to have a better soundstage than Wilson XVX, and the best soundstage I heard at Rhapsody Dallas was on Diesis, not on Alsyvox or M9. But then, put a poor record on and it goes flat. Transparency to Recording stage and dispersion style is more important than size of loudspeaker

That aside, my previous post to you was just to say that not all horns you hear were back to the wall, the pnoe, Bionor, and Cessaro Zeta you heard were pulled out. As were the Tune Audios at Munich or the Vox Olympian at Munich. The AGs weren't. And obviously not corner horns.

That aside, my previous post to you was just to say that not all horns you hear were back to the wall, the pnoe

I don't remember the Pnoes being pulled into the room.

, Bionor

Yes, but because David speakers are too close together there is, on some music, a bit of a "pinched" sensation in the middle.

Cessaro Zeta you heard were pulled out.

Yes, and I heard the soundstage develop with depth behind the plane of the speakers.

As were the Tune Audios at Munich

Yes, you're correct.

or the Vox Olympian at Munich. The AGs weren't. And obviously not corner horns.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree, I have old Trios and they do respond well to being kept away from front walls.

I have a question for you Ron: I realise that Todds Trios are much newer than mine and its a very different room but I'm curious how toed in they are. At the listening position can you see the tweeter horns straight on or can you see any of the inside of the tweeter horn tubes? In other words, are they pointing directly at your head or your shoulders?

Thanks

I think it makes more sense for Todd to give you a precisely accurate answer to this question.

 

[Blue58]

what most people don´t realise; the Trio´s rearchambers are ventilated with a foam insert behind the driver and there are narrow slits in the rear abs cover of the driver housings....
at least it was in the old Trios and they responded positively as Ron describes to being moved away from rear wall by at least 3feet

They are indeed vented. Some users report removing the cover entirely benefits the top end but to do that you need to relocate the crossover outside.

A little off topic here but the new Duo GT has a port on the bottom of the speaker. A first for AG as far as I’m aware.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't remember the Pnoes being pulled into the room.

 

[sbnx]

They are indeed vented. Some users report removing the cover entirely benefits the top end but to do that you need to relocate the crossover outside.

A little off topic here but the new Duo GT has a port on the bottom of the speaker. A first for AG as far as I’m aware.

Hello,

I have not tried removing the back cover on the horns. With the AG G2's the crossover was behind the driver. In the G3's the crossover is in the back of woofer box (The top of the iTron cabinet). So the crossover would not need to be relocated to try removing the back plates.

 

[sbnx]

I agree, I have old Trios and they do respond well to being kept away from front walls.

I have a question for you Ron: I realise that Todds Trios are much newer than mine and its a very different room but I'm curious how toed in they are. At the listening position can you see the tweeter horns straight on or can you see any of the inside of the tweeter horn tubes? In other words, are they pointing directly at your head or your shoulders?

Thanks

Hello Chop. Since Ron deferred to me here goes.

I have never tried setting up a pair of G2 AG horns so I don't know where the best place to point the tweeter would be for that series of speakers. The G3 has the drivers time aligned and the tweeter is really something special. The best place to point the tweeter is right at the ear canal. There is some fine adjustment to the exact location but in general is it pointed at the ear. I have the Trios set up this way and I set up the Duo GT's this way at the SWAF. Nobody complains of any brightness, harshness, hardness, shouty-ness etc. (I personally would not tolerate that type of thing anyway.) If anything, I would say the sound at the SWAF was a little too soft. I was using the iTron amp at the SWAF and used one of the switches in the back to boost the tweeter output by 1.5dB to give it more liveliness.

One track I repeatedly played at the show was off Hilary Hahn's Eclipse album. Track 1-- Dvorak Violin Concerto in A minor: Allegro Ma Non Troppo. This is very aggressively played violin and she plays very high. The high notes have beautiful harmonic development and the vibrato is fabulous. I could play this quite loud without any issue. I had one Japanese lady sit in the main listening chair for the entire performance. Done wrong and this is going to be screaming at the listener and one would hurredly reach for the remote to turn it down.

Some may think that with the tweeter pointed right at the ear that is going to equal "head in a vice" type sound. This is not the case. All kinds of people came in to listen -- tall and short and sat in the same chair. It was all good. You could move your head around without the sound dramatically changing. Ron can comment on this. When he was listening to the Trios I specifically asked him, "Do you feel like your head is in a vice?". His respnonse was "Absolutely not!". But I will allow him to elaborate on his thoughts.

 

[Lagonda]

Hello Chop. Since Ron deferred to me here goes.

I have never tried setting up a pair of G2 AG horns so I don't know where the best place to point the tweeter would be for that series of speakers. The G3 has the drivers time aligned and the tweeter is really something special. The best place to point the tweeter is right at the ear canal. There is some fine adjustment to the exact location but in general is it pointed at the ear. I have the Trios set up this way and I set up the Duo GT's this way at the SWAF. Nobody complains of any brightness, harshness, hardness, shouty-ness etc. (I personally would not tolerate that type of thing anyway.) If anything, I would say the sound at the SWAF was a little too soft. I was using the iTron amp at the SWAF and used one of the switches in the back to boost the tweeter output by 1.5dB to give it more liveliness.

One track I repeatedly played at the show was off Hilary Hahn's Eclipse album. Track 1-- Dvorak Violin Concerto in A minor: Allegro Ma Non Troppo. This is very aggressively played violin and she plays very high. The high notes have beautiful harmonic development and the vibrato is fabulous. I could play this quite loud without any issue. I had one Japanese lady sit in the main listening chair for the entire performance. Done wrong and this is going to be screaming at the listener and one would hurredly reach for the remote to turn it down.

Some may think that with the tweeter pointed right at the ear that is going to equal "head in a vice" type sound. This is not the case. All kinds of people came in to listen -- tall and short and sat in the same chair. It was all good. You could move your head around without the sound dramatically changing. Ron can comment on this. When he was listening to the Trios I specifically asked him, "Do you feel like your head is in a vice?". His respnonse was "Absolutely not!". But I will allow him to elaborate on his thoughts.

What is the SWAF, are you a dealer ?

 

[sbnx]

The SWAF is the new show that is in Dallas. It is the South West Audio Fest.

Yes, I became a dealer for Avantgarde Acoustic recently. I received my demo speakers about a week and a half before having to box everything up for the show.

 

[Lagonda]

The SWAF is the new show that is in Dallas. It is the South West Audio Fest.

Yes, I became a dealer for Avantgarde Acoustic recently. I received my demo speakers about a week and a half before having to box everything up for the show.

Congratulations, looks like a wonderful speaker !

 

[Al Stewart]

I have had the pleasure of spending time listening to Todd’s Trio G3s at his home. I spent about 4 hours listening and talking with Todd about set up philosophy, listening preferences and other audio related topics. I also spent some time listening to the Duo GT’s in his room at the SWAF this past weekend.

First, as I told Todd after listening to his home system: it is the best horn system I have ever heard. I’m not traditionally a horn guy. I’ve sat down at shows and in other folks homes and listened to them. I never felt thoroughly compelled by them. Todd’s set up is a different world. IMO this is because Todd is operating on a different plane. He thinks about everything. This is a good thing. And he is not a zealot for or against certain typologies. This is another good thing.

Second, while I was at Todd’s house he asked me to describe what I heard in three simple statements. Here is what I chose: 1. Quiet—Todd’s system has an extremely low noise floor because he has made this a priority; 2. Direct—What I mean here is that Todd’s system has very little smear to it—the sound isn’t bouncing all over the place—the music’s timing arrival is so good that the notes and beats meet your ear simultaneously, which gives the music great direct impact; 3. Realistic decay—I have a Steinway piano at my house that I listened to 4 kids practice their piano lessons on for about 20 years. I am extremely familiar with what live piano sounds like and the natural decay of piano notes played in front of me. Todd’s system does note decay better than any system I can remember.

Third, after hearing the Avantgarde Duo GT’s set up by Todd I’m now confident that you don’t have to have the Trio G3s for Todd to be able to get incredible sound out of the Avantgarde products. But I’m pretty sure that Todd is a big part of the secret sauce I’m hearing. I sat in two different places (intentionally) in the Avantgarde Duo GT SWAF room. One place was on the back row to the left of the preferred listening position. There, the Duo GTs sounded pretty darn good but lacked magic. I came back the next day and sat in the preferred listening position. That was a whole different league of listening. I’m confident this is because Todd’s stated preferred set up is to maximize the listening experience for the principal listener in a room.

 

[LL21]

The Trio+Spacehorn does have a quite large footprint compared to "box" speakers. Often we see the space horns layed horizotally (and maybe stacked) between the Trios. In my setup I have the spacehorns turned vertically and to the outside of the Trios.

The Trio is about 37.5 inches wide. the spacehorn turned vertical (like I have it) is 29.5 inches wide. I have about 5.25 inches between the outside of the iTron and the Spacehorn but you can see overlap between the horn and the spacehorn. Without taking an exact measurement I would say that the horizontal footprint would be about 65 inches wide. The spacehorn is about 46" deep and this is deeper than the Trio. So the footprint is a little over 5'X4'.

Thank you! I was looking/guestimating on my own from photos and the stock measurements of each speaker and how i could fit them together slightly more compactly...and I got to 4.5' x 5' so about right it appears. And yes, for our room, I would not want to take up that amount of floor space in the area where the speakers can go. I could do a bigger footprint main speaker (much taller is fine with 11' ceilings)...or a footprint which allows a 2' x 2' subwoofer to sit alongside it so maybe 3.5' x 3' but that would be the max.

That said, I really liked what I heard and could imagine going this direction while keeping the rest of the entire system as is...so a nice situation.

 

[LL21]

I have had the pleasure of spending time listening to Todd’s Trio G3s at his home. I spent about 4 hours listening and talking with Todd about set up philosophy, listening preferences and other audio related topics. I also spent some time listening to the Duo GT’s in his room at the SWAF this past weekend.

First, as I told Todd after listening to his home system: it is the best horn system I have ever heard. I’m not traditionally a horn guy. I’ve sat down at shows and in other folks homes and listened to them. I never felt thoroughly compelled by them. Todd’s set up is a different world. IMO this is because Todd is operating on a different plane. He thinks about everything. This is a good thing. And he is not a zealot for or against certain typologies. This is another good thing.

Second, while I was at Todd’s house he asked me to describe what I heard in three simple statements. Here is what I chose: 1. Quiet—Todd’s system has an extremely low noise floor because he has made this a priority; 2. Direct—What I mean here is that Todd’s system has very little smear to it—the sound isn’t bouncing all over the place—the music’s timing arrival is so good that the notes and beats meet your ear simultaneously, which gives the music great direct impact; 3. Realistic decay—I have a Steinway piano at my house that I listened to 4 kids practice their piano lessons on for about 20 years. I am extremely familiar with what live piano sounds like and the natural decay of piano notes played in front of me. Todd’s system does note decay better than any system I can remember.

Third, after hearing the Avantgarde Duo GT’s set up by Todd I’m now confident that you don’t have to have the Trio G3s for Todd to be able to get incredible sound out of the Avantgarde products. But I’m pretty sure that Todd is a big part of the secret sauce I’m hearing. I sat in two different places (intentionally) in the Avantgarde Duo GT SWAF room. One place was on the back row to the left of the preferred listening position. There, the Duo GTs sounded pretty darn good but lacked magic. I came back the next day and sat in the preferred listening position. That was a whole different league of listening. I’m confident this is because Todd’s stated preferred set up is to maximize the listening experience for the principal listener in a room.

Very very interesting...thanks for posting. What in your mind is the big picture difference between the smaller AG Duo GTs and the Trio G3s? Are they equally resolved, nuanced and able to provide insight into music...and it is simply scale of the Trios? Or are the Trios more of everything but the same 'signature' sound?

 

[adyc]

Hello Chop. Since Ron deferred to me here goes.

I have never tried setting up a pair of G2 AG horns so I don't know where the best place to point the tweeter would be for that series of speakers. The G3 has the drivers time aligned and the tweeter is really something special. The best place to point the tweeter is right at the ear canal. There is some fine adjustment to the exact location but in general is it pointed at the ear. I have the Trios set up this way and I set up the Duo GT's this way at the SWAF. Nobody complains of any brightness, harshness, hardness, shouty-ness etc. (I personally would not tolerate that type of thing anyway.) If anything, I would say the sound at the SWAF was a little too soft. I was using the iTron amp at the SWAF and used one of the switches in the back to boost the tweeter output by 1.5dB to give it more liveliness.

Not nitpicking. When you setup tweeter pointing to the ear. There is only one place in the room. Any other seats will not have tweeters pointing to the ears. Nobody complained in the show maybe not because of this?

 

[Al Stewart]

Very very interesting...thanks for posting. What in your mind is the big picture difference between the smaller AG Duo GTs and the Trio G3s? Are they equally resolved, nuanced and able to provide insight into music...and it is simply scale of the Trios? Or are the Trios more of everything but the same 'signature' sound?

In answer to your question there is clearly a difference in scale. The Trio G3 at Todd’s house is superlative to the Duo GT I heard at the hotel and it is very clear that the two systems are in different spheres. Importantly, they were sitting in very different spaces. Todd’s Trio G3 setup is going to be a top 5 sound experience for just about anyone, seasoned or beginner, in our hobby IMO. Having said that, I do think that the Duo GT sounded like it easily belongs to the Trio G3's family. And I think that the Duo GT's value proposition is very good considering the sound quality it can produce.

 

[LL21]

In answer to your question there is clearly a difference in scale. The Trio G3 at Todd’s house is superlative to the Duo GT I heard at the hotel and it is very clear that the two systems are in different spheres. Importantly, they were sitting in very different spaces. Todd’s Trio G3 setup is going to be a top 5 sound experience for just about anyone, seasoned or beginner, in our hobby IMO. Having said that, I do think that the Duo GT sounded like it easily belongs to the Trio G3's family. And I think that the Duo GT's value proposition is very good considering the sound quality it can produce.

Thank you! I can intuitively imagine what you are saying, having heard the Trio G3s with 2 pairs of spacehorns. And then dialing that back in scale (which is a big part of what makes the Trio G3s so impressive but not the only thing).

 

[Audiohertz2]

Interesting Ron’s comments on that Adele recording , Must be a Special system indeed to make such a bash listenable ..

Maybe Ron meant “Pressured “ as to run..

 

[Kozak170]

the dealer could only shrug in acknowledgement and say 'they are really, really tough to set up and I think he would still have liked more time.

In a room 45' wide and 35' deep with 14' ceilings, it was like the jazz ensemble was playing at a level that was believable and yet effortless.

I guess you heard the trio G3 in the Singaporean dealer's location (hifi.com.sg), right?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Interesting Ron’s comments on that Adele recording , Must be a Special system indeed to make such a bash listenable ..

Maybe Ron meant “Pressured “ as to run..

The Adele 21 album is great recording,what a voice better then most outthere today.
It is advisable to place the speakers halfway across the room. Hardly stimulated room modes there make the stage and the illusion of being there more believable. not everyone has the opportunity to do this. congrats