Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

[PeterA]

Mike and The General have equal priority and specialism of components

Marc, what do you mean by your statement in bold, and on what do you base such a definitive statement?

My (perhaps uninformed) opinion based on descriptions of how these respective systems are used by their owners would suggest to me different priorities. It seems to me that the General uses his system, at least in part, as a laboratory for evaluating the quality of specific recordings. This would suggest a very deliberate priority towards accurate reproduction. Mike, on the other hand, has often written about his system moving him closer to his music, in an emotional sense. Mike's system is in "service to the music." These may not be the respective systems' primary purposes, but if my impression has any merit, it would suggest somewhat different priorities.

 

[Ron Resnick]

A very interesting question. Although my experience is limited, a few cases I know of people who tried to copy exact systems were complete failures, and not just because of the room. Extremely tuned systems are very sensitive!

Listening to and enjoying music in an high-end system is much more than gear - it is also a life style. I have listened to excellent systems that I would consider significantly better than mine, but I still prefer my system in my room.

Respectfully, I think this is misunderstanding what I tried to convey and what I believe Kedar has tried to convey. I don’t think zerostargeneral’s system is “extremely tuned” and “very sensitive.”

The associated components were laboriously and meticulously selected for synergy and to achieve the desired sonic results based on vast empirical experience, but I saw nothing finicky or high-strung or sensitive about the resulting system. The components all seem very robust to me.

 

[cjfrbw]

It is possible to greatly admire a system and not necessarily want to own it or duplicate it. I greatly admire some of the horn systems I have heard, and I greatly admire Steve Williams Alexandria/Lamm ML3 system with cones, but I would not at this point wish to own either because I don't think they would tune into my own personal paradigm. It is more along the lines that I would like to emulate some characteristics of these systems.

I am happy with ribbons because they give me the kind of experience I crave in my setting. Big horns might grate after a while, no matter how seamless or magnificent. The observable sacrifice between horns and 'others' is slam and gut gelling presence in the lower midrange.

When one sets up one's own system over long term listening, it is very problematic tossing it over on the basis of any short term audition no matter how marvelous. It becomes more like refinement than revolution. I still appreciate hearing different paradigms because they keep me refreshed (and also puzzled, you never figure it ALL out).

I am almost glad I spend a couple of days a week in Santa Cruz away from the big rig, because I just spend too much time in front it when I'm there.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So, you'll have ZERO buyer's regret after hearing Vyger, Mayer and Pnoes, and look at yr packing crates storing AS and Pendragons?

If my primary musical genre preference were jazz or jazz plus classical, absolutely.

You know I derive significant comfort from knowing that the manufacturers of my components are not an ocean and a continent’s distance away. If I lived in Europe the VYGER would make perfect sense to me.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike starts his system room down. Think of other people with a lot of experience and gear on this forum... David, Mik, G, Gian, Pietro, etc... None of them tried to work on their room, Mike had a specialized one 15 years ago and he works hard on it daily basis and everything flows from there, noise floor, linearity down to 7 Hz.

Now look at it the other way, none of them have worked 1% of G in terms of recordings and performances and he works many hours a day curating and selecting recordings and also the way he cleans the LP. If you watch him take out the LP and put it back into its cover, it is quite an art, done without touching the cover to preserve the value. Likewise, Mike actually puts on gloves and there is not a speck of dust in there. Both are obsessive..

Both have done component matching

At the end both systems will accurately play back recordings and show transparency to recordings through entirely different channels.

And yes, I have heard the MM3 with the same amps as Mike in another room so I can guess how much distance has been covered by room set up and the Mike factor alone..

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, no disrespect, but this sounds like a false dichotomy. Their choices of tt, amps and spkrs are different modalities, but top eschelon within their categories. The only meaningful difference is Mike has spent big on the room, grounding, active isolation etc, whereas The General has plonked his system in a purely domestic setting w minimal atrention to acoustics, cbls etc, no "black box" magic other than some Mooks.

It may well be The General has chosen vinyl/triodes/uber high eff single driver for purity of evaluation, but his system is one of the most musical I've heard, and I'm sure Mike's is too.

 

[bonzo75]

Moral of the story...shun Mook in the room is the key ingredient that made Ron swoon

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Do we really believe Mike's system would sound remotely as good in Ron's more challenging space?

. . .

I don’t know how to quantify “remotely” but Mike’s system definitely would not sound as good in my listening space. That is for sure.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . slavish devotion to building that room . . .

Why do you use mischaracterizing language like “slavish devotion”? Mike’s room initially was acoustic consultant designed with Mike’s input and decision-making, and then improved by Mike himself experimentally, carefully and methodically over time.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, no disrespect, but this sounds like a false dichotomy. Their choices of tt, amps and spkrs are different modalities, but top eschelon within their categories. The only meaningful difference is Mike has spent big on the room, grounding, active isolation etc, whereas The General has plonked his system in a purely domestic setting w minimal atrention to acoustics, cbls etc, no "black box" magic other than some Mooks.

It may well be The General has chosen vinyl/triodes/uber high eff single driver for purity of evaluation, but his system is one of the most musical I've heard, and I'm sure Mike's is too.

Marc, none taken. I think you missed my point completely, but I may not have made it clearly.

I still don't understand what you mean by Mike and the General having equal priorities. That to me implies a form of intent. I don't know their respective intentions with regard to their systems other than to guess what it might be based on what I have read. You seem to be more aware of this, so I asked you to explain it. That's all. I don't think it has anything to do with system make up or rooms. I guess I just don't understand what you meant by your statement.

 

[spiritofmusic]

How much did it cost to do the room, Ron? I equate slavish devotion both to physical and mental effort, and to going the extra mile financially and logistically. Mike's room = slavish devotion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i know i'd rather hear more about some of the General's recordings that were played, and what was heard, or maybe some of the set-up nuances/details that the General or Lucas used, than more about my room.

 

[Folsom]

This proves too much, because this is an argument against almost the entire hobby of high-end audio. If we are not going to bother in the playback chain with components better than the ones used to make the recordings we might as well give up the pursuit of high-end playback.

Not it really isn't. Ron, the thing about high end audio is we're searching for what is right to us. We want it to sound pure the way we think pure is, but that isn't necessarily anywhere near the reality of pure towards what's on an LP (let's recall your own post about camps). I'm not sure why you think having 20 tubes in the signal path is more "pure" than say a resistor. Why do all tubes sound so different, and if they do how can we insure they're more "pure" than anything else? Now capacitors, well you usually have a decent argument there since they really change sound most of the time - but everyone knows that.

Think about this, DartZeel amps have only 5 transistors, an extremely short signal path, are they the same type of "purity" in sound as TM?

What I think you could be arguing for is maintaining the signal and not degrading it anymore than than the singer was degraded in the playback. But then you contend with A. real to you VS B. real to the album. Considering the noise of a resistor is infinitesimal compared to a tube... well... we chose the sound we like because it's pretty fruitless to fight that battle. Also resistors may be omitted more by design than intention. And to burst your bubble a little, TM uses an LCR circuit for RIAA equalization, as stated on his site. (LCR stands for inductor capacitor resistor)

What I'm talking about is a cautionary tale. You hear something and then you decide why it sounds the way it does without ever changing the circuits to verify; and don't even expel the same reasons the designer does. I would go as far as to say it undermines the designer to claim your take is the revelation. He's not the first or last to make a signal path with almost nothing in it. But he's the only guy the General bought stereo parts from for that stereo - which speaks more to me than a "fun fact" about TM gear. If you go to TM's sight you might notice that he discusses things he believes make his equipment really good in the philosophy, and you may notice it doesn't include the "fun fact" directly (saying transformers are good is kind-of a transformers > capacitors, when it comes to electronic circuits). Really if you want to make an argument against resistors (and in audio we assume we're already talking about non-magnetic capped ones) then you should also be arguing against wires between stuff, reducing it as much as possible since it affects the sound too - and connectors etc etc. But there's a lot more to the reality that escapes most designers than just how many and what types of parts are in a path (and TM has found ways to avoid it).

Yes, this claim is sonorous, but technically meaningless unless properly analyzed . All transformers have significant intrinsic resistance due to the wire resistance and it shows in series with the signal, so we have resistance in the path. IMHO we should appreciate such great system as an whole and should not try to associate magic properties to just an individual part of it.

Speakers are resistors.

 

[spiritofmusic]

i know i'd rather hear more about some of the General's recordings that were played, and what was heard, or maybe some of the set-up nuances/details that the General or Lucas used, than more about my room.

No problem Mike, I'd like to think I don't have a slavish devotion in that respect Lol.

 

[Folsom]

I want to repeat/rephrase this question to Ron.

Ron, I asked if hearing his stereo is going to change your stereo choices. But perhaps I should ask that less from what you will change, to more do you now have to think about making changes?

 

[bonzo75]

Does look a bit like Ron in front of a horn.

Altecs from Saturday night fever

 

[NorthStar]

Ked, that's a fun ^ pic.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Attempting to get this back on track. The music heard.

I spoke to General this morning and understand he played Ron all sorts of stuff from varied genres. I know he played some Bill Withers - please find a link to a particularly beautiful track from a performance I don’t think is unfortunately available on vinyl.

That said, the album with the track (different performance) is on Sussex / Just as I am. Am sure many will own it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Travolta was told not to some of his own moves himself, as they were so risky that insurances wouldn't cover the risk. Oh, happier days in a non PC age.

 

[microstrip]

I don't doubt that many members are less concerned about the performances, and that from my point of view is an unfortunate thing.

Personally, I agree that we should all stop buying original LPs and move to streaming.

No, IMHO they are not less concerned. Simply most are concerned with the performances they like and enjoy, not with those some other people consider the mandatory "best".

The bad news for you if that many people buy precious originals for collecting, mostly because they are rare. They will be kept as stamps or coins, as valuable investment. These are the people that make prices rise exponentially, following market rules, not musical taste.