Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

[Ron Resnick]

Conventional systems do large scale symphonies by backward layering, separation, and a left to right soundstage, and lots of bass driver movement. Big cones, large apogees, are excellent at it. Mike's is the best at it in this direction because there is virtually no limit to how much the orchestra keeps soaring.

G's system approaches this very differently. His system is my favorite for large orchestral along with Mike's, and there is no similarity in how both approach It. . . .

. . .

What happens when you play orchestral at his place, you can experience only at his place. My previous experience, and later, with hifi systems did not prepare me for it. Let's just say each section and instrument of the orchestra breathes in purity, and by tonal differences, separation is created. It is very different from a multi way. And I can imagine most who try this approach with lesser drivers, lesser electronics, and/or lesser recordings will fail at it. Which is why we don't get to experience it in normal recordings systems.

. . . .

I agree with each sentence here.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks... I'm interested in this because I want to improve my own speaker, which is a single driver in a horn as well. My single driver falls off sharply at 400 Hz due to the size of the horn and excursion is also limited with a single cap xo at 400 Hz. My speaker is only ok at complex music despite the full range driver being alleviated of a great majority of low frequency information.

How much of this exactly is the electronics vs speaker and room is kinda hard to say...

You've also said the newer AER BD5 is a significant leap over the BD3, which I've owned... and the tube gear is also a level of design above what I have put together as well, I do have a few resistors and a couple caps in the signal path, not that it's the end of the world, but it is a simpler and much less expensive design vs the Mayer gear.

Do you attribute the symphonic excellence to any particular aspect of the system? Can it do the same with a BD3 driver?

I have heard it with bd4, over which it was quite a leap, never heard it with bd3, though I think Bill did. The bd4 did extremely well. I think recordings are what will compromise the system first (rightly so, given what he is about), and the electronics. Since you are looking at lesser expensive amps stick to 45/2a3 rather than increase in power for this driver.

Also try two way with simple crossover. I think that will be ideal. I think G does the pure thing because he can pull it off with all elements, but if I was a manufacturer then for the general crowd I would go two way with this driver on the top

 

[bonzo75]

Apologies if you dislike my views, please feel free to ignore them. I am always happy to debate the contents of the messages, as long as they address audio matters, not the posters.

Difficult to ignore shrill noise

 

[Al M.]

Although digital vs analog does not seem to be relevant in this thread, IMHO loudness and probably bandwidth are.

+ 1

 

[Al M.]

Difficult to ignore shrill noise

You sound like a schoolyard bully.

 

[bonzo75]

You sound like a schoolyard bully.

And you sound like pink noise

 

[DaveC]

Dear all in the self congratulatory society,

I feel compelled to share;all visitors wear ear defenders because the sound is so shrill it can really hurt.

There is no jump factor at all Ron,bless him may have mistaken the hydraulic works in my squat for orchestral tympani?

Who knows,Micro may have been enlightened by the Doig and solved Riemann Zeta function?

Kindest regards(wish i had turned it up)G.

Sounds like a General's all-out assault on the WC...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Conventional systems do large scale symphonies by backward layering, separation, and a left to right soundstage, and lots of bass driver movement. Big cones, large apogees, are excellent at it. Mike's is the best at it in this direction because there is virtually no limit to how much the orchestra keeps soaring. Tang's being a horn, is still a multi way, and multi way horns also follow a similar approach.

G's system approaches this very differently. His system is my favorite for large orchestral along with Mike's, and there is no similarity in how both approach It. I have heard many large pieces there, including resurrection, erotica, ode to joy various versions and movements, 5th, new world.

In fact, new world was the first he played to me, first the speakers corner reissue, then the first edition. After that he slaughtered the Fone Mahler 2 I had brought along with me with an original (that, iirc, was not EQed while recording).

What happens when you play orchestral at his place, you can experience only at his place. My previous experience, and later, with hifi systems did not prepare me for it. Let's just say each section and instrument of the orchestra breathes in purity, and by tonal differences, separation is created. It is very different from a multi way. And I can imagine most who try this approach with lesser drivers, lesser electronics, and/or lesser recordings will fail at it. Which is why we don't get to experience it in normal recordings systems.

Many of his LPs also were recorded with no limiters, so they have amazing dynamics during the soar, the low to high. Some of these LPs have grooves made by hand to adjust for the dynamics per groove. So it is unfettered.

Am I the only member to not know Beethoven’s Erotica

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I have heard it with bd4, over which it was quite a leap, never heard it with bd3, though I think Bill did. The bd4 did extremely well. I think recordings are what will compromise the system first (rightly so, given what he is about), and the electronics. Since you are looking at lesser expensive amps stick to 45/2a3 rather than increase in power for this driver.

Also try two way with simple crossover. I think that will be ideal. I think G does the pure thing because he can pull it off with all elements, but if I was a manufacturer then for the general crowd I would go two way with this driver on the top

Hi Dave/Ked,

No I only heard with AER BD4 and then 5. The BD4 was stupendously good, but the 5 is otherworldly. Imho ymmv. Filip is a genius that I am 100% sure.

My current system uses the BD4 in an active 2 way.

Best wishes.

 

[Al M.]

And you sound like pink noise

You prove my point. Thank you very much.

 

[NorthStar]

Am I the only member to not know Beethoven’s Erotica

You mean "Eroica" ...

 

[bonzo75]

You prove my point. Thank you very much.

You too, at 100 db.

 

[bonzo75]

Am I the only member to not know Beethoven’s Erotica

Lol.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You mean "Eroica" ...

Hey,

Think you missed my joke.

Ked has typed Erotica by accident. In terms of Eroica, yes I have performed it.

 

[gian60]

I can understand this sound very natural and magic,i think is similar with my old audiotekne system,one way speaker very good quality with super tweeter ale dep 1750 and top pre and amp audiotekne 8 watt with superpermalloy trans with Audiotekne cartridge,very natural
2 friends also cried listening Frank Sinatra

 

[Folsom]

General, what cables do you use?

Bonzo, I know exactly what you're talking about M vs G. Awhile back I described Mike's stereo as an unparalleled 3D mapping system when it comes to classical & stuff other than a lot of rock (because it isn't recorded in a way to do the stereo justice). It's absurdly good at throwing a soundstage and image that feels like you can get up and walk to each instrument player. But it's completely different in sound than a stereo like the Generals. When you have all TM gear it's not a surprise it's different since TM specifically states his goal being very different - but reports many users are impressed with soundstage, too. Also the room isn't setup quite in that way - he even uses a chair that stop lots of reflections that most on here say is sacrilege. Two different people with different goals, backed up by many different people making gear with different goals.

 

[NorthStar]

Hey,

Think you missed my joke.

Ked has typed Erotica by accident. In terms of Eroica, yes I have performed it.

No, I did not.

* And are you 100% sure that Ked made a typo by accident?

 

[morricab]

Earlier this year I attended a living room ensemble concert of five musicians. It definitely was interesting to experience and hear the power of unamplified instruments close up. This definitely helps to calibrate our ears to the actual sound of unamplified instruments as a remembered reference against which to judge stereo systems.

Yep, it was an eye opener for me and I got to hear it everyday for four years. It was quite difficult to record it without using limiters and compression because a single violin has so much power in a normal room.

 

[morricab]

ok, i'll bite your tease.

help me to understand what part of what i wrote might be changed when using a single driver. not sure what point you are making.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for playing. I was referring to the comment about the importance of distance from the drivers...with a single driver that is not very critical.

 

[cjfrbw]

Sounds like a General's all-out assault on the WC...

The General has trained his neighbors to flush the toilets during orchestral crescendos.