Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for playing. I was referring to the comment about the importance of distance from the drivers...with a single driver that is not very critical.

fair enough. i don't have the experience to dispute that perspective.

OTOH basic logic tells me; (1) there is a close proximity limit to the front projecting part of the driver as they don't work as headphones, and (2) in essence a back loaded horn has another driver, the mouth of the back loaded bottom frequency part. which does require a reasonable stand off distance to work right.

so while i see that the single driver is much less (completely not) concerned about driver coherence, there is still a stand off distance involved in optimal performance.

please set me straight if my uninformed views/guesses are off base.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike, you are spot on. The exit from the back loaded horn works similar to being a second driver and has to be managed properly. In fact the biggest issues when driving with the wrong amp is that the bass goes out of sync. And not all backloaded horns can pull it off too

 

[GMKF]

Any takers?

View attachment 57748

Do you want me to solve it

 

[the sound of Tao]

Am I the only member to not know Beethoven’s Erotica

I believe it was only ever played after hours in the horn section... shortly followed by an ode to joy.

 

[morricab]

fair enough. i don't have the experience to dispute that perspective.

OTOH basic logic tells me; (1) there is a close proximity limit to the front projecting part of the driver as they don't work as headphones, and (2) in essence a back loaded horn has another driver, the mouth of the back loaded bottom frequency part. which does require a reasonable stand off distance to work right.

so while i see that the single driver is much less (completely not) concerned about driver coherence, there is still a stand off distance involved in optimal performance.

please set me straight if my uninformed views/guesses are off base.

I did say not very important, which is also not completely unimportant. Given that bass is pretty forgiving of proximity, I would think this has more to do with room modes in a particular room rather than a hard rule for proximity. I haven been able to sit very close to mine (like within 1.5 meters) without a large noticeable difference in performance other than bass weight (probably room modes) and no perceptible change in coherence. The room modes of course can be a problem at just about any distance from the speaker.

So, given I have found that they remain coherent and pretty well balanced from about 1.5 to at least 3.5 meters I would consider that "not very important" wrt the distance one sits from my single driver speakers.

 

[morricab]

Mike, you are spot on. The exit from the back loaded horn works similar to being a second driver and has to be managed properly. In fact the biggest issues when driving with the wrong amp is that the bass goes out of sync. And not all backloaded horns can pull it off too

The biggest problem I have found is that if the amp damping factor is too high the bass pretty much disappears with BLH and TQWT speakers...so far haven't experienced real coherence issues

 

[the sound of Tao]

Am I the only member to not know Beethoven’s Erotica

Plus (without boasting) appropriate levels in the climax can only be achieved at home on a proper horn system.

 

[bonzo75]

The biggest problem I have found is that if the amp damping factor is too high the bass pretty much disappears with BLH and TQWT speakers...so far haven't experienced real coherence issues

Yes high damping also kills the bass in some other horn systems. But here more power also pushes the bass out too much so the coherence gets affected

 

[Folsom]

The biggest problem I have found is that if the amp damping factor is too high the bass pretty much disappears with BLH and TQWT speakers...so far haven't experienced real coherence issues

This is correct. Certain types of horn loads are incompatible with the damping. The horns themselves are almost exclusively already very damped. The combination result is as Brad mentions. But damping doesn't behave the same way in other speakers. Either way, it certainly isn't "out of sync", as, well, that just isn't possible without DSP.

I'd love to see Pnoe FR graph. I suspect it must be better than most single drivers.

 

[DaveC]

Many full range drivers used to be made that way... stiff suspension so they need a low DF amp. Now most are as floppy as possible while still keeping the driver aligned, so they will work well with any amp, but BLH like pnoe can change things. Most BLH I've heard were bad, then I heard a Lamhorn and it works well, probably because it's not a "true" horn, it's shorter... in between horn and TL. One day the designer will figure out you can simply put a tube in the box.

 

[Folsom]

Really, what brands? Fostex are not. Mark Audio are less damped than Fostex. AER doesn't post T/S anywhere I've seen.

 

[morricab]

Many full range drivers used to be made that way... stiff suspension so they need a low DF amp. Now most are as floppy as possible while still keeping the driver aligned, so they will work well with any amp, but BLH like pnoe can change things. Most BLH I've heard were bad, then I heard a Lamhorn and it works well, probably because it's not a "true" horn, it's shorter... in between horn and TL. One day the designer will figure out you can simply put a tube in the box.

I think the Lammhorn is a TQWT where the mouth fires downward to the floor. This is how my Odeons and my Supravox speakers are loaded and the bass is better than many front firing exponential BLH designs I have heard... the Aries Cerat Symphonia being a notable exception.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I believe it was only ever played after hours in the horn section... shortly followed by an ode to joy.

I heard there was fur Elise

 

[Tango]

I can understand this sound very natural and magic,i think is similar with my old audiotekne system,one way speaker very good quality with super tweeter ale dep 1750 and top pre and amp audiotekne 8 watt with superpermalloy trans with Audiotekne cartridge,very natural
2 friends also cried listening Frank Sinatra

If you played Beethoven's Erotica back then, you two friends would have gotten a boner instead.

Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'd say we need more music listened to and less humor.

 

[NorthStar]

Jesus, in Ron's thread ...
_____

 

[Audiophile Bill]

i'd say we need more music listened to and less humor.

5hrs into my Friday evening session, Mike. I guess you guys will be following soonish.

 

[Tango]

Sorry Bill started it. Ron will give me another warning or delete. I will go walk my dog now.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If you played Beethoven's Erotica back then, you two friends would have gotten a boner instead.

Tang

GROSS!!!

 

[NorthStar]