Vivid Giya G3

[dallasjustice]

Nyal's blog post on decay time standards fits better with my experience.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/understanding-small-room-reverberation-time-measurements/

Amir, the next time you are in a room with 500+ms decay, I want you to play the following Awolnation song, 85-90db at the seated position.

"Can I get an Amen?"

If by "small" you mean RT60 is not valid, that is folklore that is created on the web. It is not correct. See this rather long series of posts/articles I have written on the topic: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...nt-thereof-to-quot-small-acoustic-spaces-quot

That said, yes, in large performance spaces RT60 holds more value than in our listening room. Our use here is limited to quick assessment of whether a room is too live or too dead. Acceptable ranges are between 0.2 and 0.6 when measured @500 Hz. For music I like to see 0.5 to 0.6 and in the case of classical music and large performances, even slightly higher. For multichannel when the other speakers provide the ambiance, then lower values can be tolerated.

Also, one can visually determine RT60 as I did by looking at your room. In this case with fully carpeted room you are already quite a bit there with respect to total space that can be covered. Another way is by simply talking as human speech resembles the directivity of most loudspeakers at those frequencies.


As I said, as long as you are happy, that is fine. Just wanted to note it as chasing low frequency absorption often results in rooms that are overly dead.

 

[Blizzard]

I only posted it for the few measurements. But you are right; there are several. Do you know of another one with extensive "objectivity" Mike?
I did not take the time to look at them all, but four-six on the G1 ($60,000-65,000/pair).

I'll have a look. I've built a few speakers with side firing woofers. But I've always used midbasses that were quite robust, and could run down low, and crossed the side firing woofers over around 80-100HZ. When your using a dome mid this is difficult though. Because the midbass must have a very light and fast cone, stiff suspension and low xmax to coherently match the super fast dome mid. This is why they only run it down to 220 hz and use a 4th order slope.

I've always found it very hard to get a solid, full, high impact and coherent sound from the listening position between 100-350 hz, without using a robust front firing midwoofer with a decent VD compensating for baffle step diffraction in the region of 100-350 hz. Especially when the speaker has a skinny front baffle.

But there's several ways to skin a cat, so I'm wondering what they have done to remedy this.

 

[dallasjustice]

I think you asked for plots before but now the post disappeared. So I guess I can just respond here.

I've measured from the seated position so many times using REW and also Acourate and Audiolense I have sort of memorized the little trouble spots below the transition frequency in my room. One of those spots is around 150hz. I don't remember the exact center frequency. This isn't a speaker problem. It's an issue with my sidewall reflection phase reversal, causing a null. I've made some effort to treat the sidewalls. I have modex plates which help. However, I noticed the Audiolense sweep after I toed-in was a little smoother. I assume that has to do with the toe in and how the speaker interacts with the sidewall. I can't do an overlay in Audiolense so my graphs aren't very helpful. I didn't do any REW sweeps before the toe in either. It's a challenge to record REW sweeps when using FIR filters. The way I can do it requires that I go ASIO line in to Jriver which is easy. But, it's a pain to configure the routing in the Lynx Hilo I use for measurements (and playback) to work multi-client between REW and Jriver. It is nice that the Hilo ASIO is multi-client capable though. Most pro units can't do those sorts of measurements.

I use a calibrated earthworks m23 and an earthworks zdt 1021 mic pre.

I'll have a look. I've built a few speakers with side firing woofers. But I've always used midbasses that were quite robust, and could run down low, and crossed the side firing woofers over around 80-100HZ. When your using a dome mid this is difficult though. Because the midbass must have a very light and fast cone, stiff suspension and low xmax to coherently match the super fast dome mid. This is why they only run it down to 220 hz and use a 4th order slope.

I've always found it very hard to get a solid, full, high impact and coherent sound from the listening position between 100-350 hz, without using a robust front firing midwoofer with a decent VD compensating for baffle step diffraction in the region of 100-350 hz. Especially when the speaker has a skinny front baffle.

But there's several ways to skin a cat, so I'm wondering what they have done to remedy this.

 

[dallasjustice]

Thanks for reminding me about that beautiful blonde distracting me from those expensive Goldmund speakers. I can't even remember what they were called.

One of the reasons I thought the vivid speakers are so good has to do with their lateral off axis performance. The vivid Giya speakers have the best lateral off axis ever measured by JA. It makes sense to me that excellent lateral off axis makes it easier to toe a speaker further in toward the listener without losing the wide soundstage.

I just finished reading the entire thread; I feel much better now. :b

I also read few reviews of both the G1 and the G3; impressive.
Here's one from Stereophile on your speakers Michael: http://www.stereophile.com/content/vivid-audio-giya-g3-loudspeaker#cczGyW2bY6O5Oe5J.97

* Regarding x-overs and subwoofers: From my readings, if a speaker plays flat down to 30Hz, cross it @ 60Hz (twice higher). ...20 -> 40, 40 -> 80.
But it is more complex; the slope (1st order, 6dB per octave), and exact crossover point (fraction, like 38.5Hz for example), the type, made, application, etc.

Is there one recipe that applies to everyone?

Cool thread, and I also checked your previous setup Michael...the other thread.

I think your setup is the most extreme when it comes to how far the speakers are from the front wall, your listening position in the room, and how far the speakers are to your ears.
Only the separation between them is good...for best imaging. The rest? It's even better.

<> Oh Michael, that portrait of that young attractive blonde was positioned that way so that the viewers, us, can all see her.
If she would have face the listener we wouldn't have seen her. :b /// Maybe?

 

[Blizzard]

I think you asked for plots before but now the post disappeared. So I guess I just respond here.

I've measured from the seated position so many times using REW and also Acourate and Audiolense I have sort of memorized the little trouble spots below the transition frequency in my room. One of those spots is around 150hz. I don't remember the exact center frequency. This isn't a speaker problem. It's an issue with my sidewall reflection phase reversal, causing a null. I've made some effort to treat the sidewalls. I have modex plates which help. However, I noticed the Audiolense sweep after I toed-in was a little smoother. I assume that has to do with the toe in and how the speaker interacts with the sidewall. I can't do an overlay in Audiolense so my graphs aren't very helpful. I didn't do any REW sweeps before the toe in either. It's a challenge to record REW sweeps when using FIR filters. The way I can do it requires that I go ASIO line in to Jriver which is easy. But, it's a pain to configure the routing in the Lynx Hilo I use for measurements (and playback) to work multi-client between REW and Jriver. It is nice that the Hilo ASIO is multi-client capable though. Most pro units can't do those sorts of measurements.

I use a calibrated earthworks m23 and an earthworks zdt 1021 mic pre.

I didn't realize you were using Acourate or Audiolense. I'm kinda more interested in non-corrected in room measurements. Definitely when you have side firing woofers the speakers are more room dependant. Your extra dampened room probably helps with this.

Maybe if you have a chance, do some REW sweeps with 1/3 octave smoothing from the listening position, without Acourate or Audiolense enabled, then with, so we can see the difference.

 

[Blizzard]

Thanks for reminding me about that beautiful blonde distracting me from those expensive Goldmund speakers. I can't even remember what they were called.

One of the reasons I thought the vivid speakers are so good has to do with their lateral off axis performance. The vivid Giya speakers have the best lateral off axis ever measured by JA. It makes sense to me that excellent lateral off axis makes it easier to toe a speaker further in toward the listener without losing the wide soundstage.

Dome mids are amazing for this. Matched with a fast lower mid it's almost impossible the beat 300hz up. I've built a few speakers with the legendary ATC soft dome. Accuton makes some out of this world concave ceramic and diamond domes as well. IMO if you want to get into super speaker territory, you must have a mid that's 4" or smaller (dome or cone) handling the midrange.

 

[dallasjustice]

I'd love to but it took me a while to reposition the speakers. It's not the most fun thing I've done this past week. .

I didn't realize you were using Acourate or Audiolense. I'm kinda more interested in non-corrected in room measurements. Definitely when you have side firing woofers the speakers are more room dependant. Your extra dampened room probably helps with this.

Maybe if you have a chance, do some REW sweeps with 1/3 octave smoothing from the listening position, without Acourate or Audiolense enabled, then with, so we can see the difference.

 

[Blizzard]

I'd love to but it took me a while to reposition the speakers. It's not the most fun thing I've done this past week. .

Have you listened to the Sheffield drum and track disk at live levels with them yet? I'm curious how hard hitting the snare sounds and feels.

 

[NorthStar]

That, music is awful, it should not be allowed to be posted in a forum who aims for the best. It was very painful, I could not stand more than five seconds.

 

[dallasjustice]

That's the way I expected it would sound in a room with long decay time. It sounds killer in my room. I love it. I saw them a few weeks back when they came through Dallas. It was one of the loudest shows I've been too but it also sounded great.

That, music is awful, it should not be allowed to be posted in a forum who aims for the best. It was very painful, I could not stand more than five seconds.

 

[NorthStar]

Michael, I like everything about you; your speakers, your listening room, your expertise and experience, your attitude, ...except your taste in music.

__________

On a technical note: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...oudspeaker-specifications#BywY1X0yzmo6CFRq.97
Your G3s have a pair of 5.5" side firing woofers. ...-2dB @ 36Hz according to specs (reference axis).
Your 80Hz crossover choice; I'm totally with you...certainly not lower than that.

________

The aerodynamic shape of the Vivid speakers design, I'm sure was measured with wind turbines and smoke for best sound propagation off axis?
The base reminds me of a bowling pin ("quille" in French - my Dad was an avid player when young, and I used to hang there for a short while, when very young, on some evenings).

 

[Blizzard]

Michael, I like everything about you; your speakers, your listening room, your expertise and experience, your attitude, ...except your taste in music.

__________

On a technical note: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...oudspeaker-specifications#BywY1X0yzmo6CFRq.97
Your G3s have a pair of 5.5" side firing woofers. ...-2dB @ 36Hz according to specs (reference axis).
Your 80Hz crossover choice; I'm totally with you...certainly not lower than that.

________

The aerodynamic shape of the Vivid speakers design, I'm sure was measured with wind turbines and smoke for best sound propagation off axis?
The base reminds me of a bowling pin ("quille" in French - my Dad was an avid player when young, and I used to hang there for a short while, when very young, on some evenings).

View attachment 23923

I would only xover at 80hz if I was using a robust 7", or dual 5" midwoofers. Otherwise not enough energy between 80-350 HZ.

 

[Rodney Gold]

If you want a little more scale , toe em to your ears.. if you want a little bit more holographic imaging .. toe em in to cross about a ft in front of your face.

As regards Blizzard' advice .. in the first place , he thinks dickie is a cheapskate and the speakers can be improved on if he had to use "better" crossover components and he also has this idea that good sound is flat at listening position....

 

[Blizzard]

If you want a little more scale , toe em to your ears.. if you want a little bit more holographic imaging .. toe em in to cross about a ft in front of your face.

As regards Blizzard' advice .. in the first place , he thinks dickie is a cheapskate and the speakers can be improved on if he had to use "better" crossover components and he also has this idea that good sound is flat at listening position....

I only say that about the crossover components because it's true. They proved it with a picture in the 6 moons review.

For example let's compare a 10mfd Mundorf silver/oil cap, with The same 10mfd Bennic used in the Giya. Most speakers in that price range use caps of the Mundorf caliber. They don't do this just because they want to waste money. It's done because they are light years better. It's a standard cap for my passive speakers, and I usually bypass it with an even higher end Dueland.





But if your among the crowd that thinks "all caps sound the same" I guess this wouldn't interest you. However if you're among the crowd that knows better, You would have a new xover built with premium components and swap that Bennic junk out.

And BTW, their resistors are much worse than their caps.

 

[Rodney Gold]

That you think you know better and could do better than L Dickie is absurd...

 

[Blizzard]

That you think you know better and could do better than L Dickie is absurd...

Rodney, it's common knowledge among every speaker builder on the planet that Bennic caps, coils and resistors are junk. This has nothing to do with the engineering that went into the speaker. And chances are L Dickie was against the decision as well. It was most likely the bean counters that made this decision. If you think it sounds good now, upgrade that crossover and it will be shockingly better. You don't have to redesign the circuit, just rebuild the same circuit with Mundorf caps, Mundorf foil coils, and Dueland CAST resistors. Your jaw will drop!

And if you want to launch it through the stratosphere, bypass the critical caps with Dueland Silver/wax/oil bypass caps.

 

[microstrip]

Laurence Dickie on cables and passive components (from http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourvivid/3.html:

6moons Joel Chevassus "Like many manufacturers you do not highlight your internal hookup wiring. Do you consider it crucial or more anecdotal?"


Laurence Dickie: "Internal wiring has to be as relevant as the external cabling. Back in the years of the original design phase we auditioned various wires and found Van den Hul to offer a good product. Clearly there is a constant stream of new products. If f we were to audition all the new wires available there would be no time to design new products. Actually I dream of the day we can employ someone to do nothing but audition cables and components. I can assure you that person would be very busy."

 

[DaveyF]

You know what they say...the devil is in the details.
It is a little surprising that a speaker like the Giya's, which IMHO sound superb, would be using sub par parts. OTOH, this wouldn't be the first time that sub par parts have been used in a great sounding product. Since I believe that speaker design is somewhat science and art, perhaps LD made a decision to "voice" his speaker with the cap that he knew was somewhat 'colored'.
The new CAT preamp, called the Black path edition employs a new cap that the designer, Ken Stevens, listened to and apparently picked after 'AB' several competing caps from various manufacturer's. This is something that Ken has done with many of the parts in his gear. ( The AB test is described more fully in the current review and issue of the latest S'phile mag).
Clearly caps play a part in the sound of the final product, and since the sound of the Giya's is superb, perhaps the choice of this particular 'inexpensive' cap was made due to its contribution to the sound and not due to its detriment. Would a much better sounding cap increase the SQ that the speakers deliver, maybe not....that would be perhaps what LD is going to tell us. OTOH, did the bean counters had anything to do with the decision..??? The choice probably made them happy too!!

 

[ack]

I only say that about the crossover components because it's true. They proved it with a picture in the 6 moons review.

For example let's compare a 10mfd Mundorf silver/oil cap, with The same 10mfd Bennic used in the Giya. Most speakers in that price range use caps of the Mundorf caliber. They don't do this just because they want to waste money. It's done because they are light years better. It's a standard cap for my passive speakers, and I usually bypass it with an even higher end Dueland.

View attachment 23925 View attachment 23926

View attachment 23927

But if your among the crowd that thinks "all caps sound the same" I guess this wouldn't interest you. However if you're among the crowd that knows better, You would have a new xover built with premium components and swap that Bennic junk out.
And BTW, their resistors are much worse than their caps.

Bennics (and Solens) is what I also replaced in my crossover, with Mundorfs - night and day. Bennic impart a much softer sound to the speaker, but at the end of the day, they are colorations. I guess I just lost interest in these Giyas...

I consider Bennic at the bottom of the food chain. BTW, one of the best sites for capacitor comparisons is http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

[Blizzard]

You know what they say...the devil is in the details.
It is a little surprising that a speaker like the Giya's, which IMHO sound superb, would be using sub par parts. OTOH, this wouldn't be the first time that sub par parts have been used in a great sounding product. Since I believe that speaker design is somewhat science and art, perhaps LD made a decision to "voice" his speaker with the cap that he knew was somewhat 'colored'.
The new CAT preamp, called the Black path edition employs a new cap that the designer, Ken Stevens, listened to and apparently picked after 'AB' several competing caps from various manufacturer's. This is something that Ken has done with many of the parts in his gear. ( The AB test is described more fully in the current review and issue of the latest S'phile mag).
Clearly caps play a part in the sound of the final product, and since the sound of the Giya's is superb, perhaps the choice of this particular 'inexpensive' cap was made due to its contribution to the sound and not due to its detriment. Would a much better sounding cap increase the SQ that the speakers deliver, maybe not....that would be perhaps what LD is going to tell us. OTOH, did the bean counters had anything to do with the decision..??? The choice probably made them happy too!!

Nobody uses Bennic parts for their sound. Its because of cost. If you compare the cost of the caps to the Mundorf silver/oils, we are talking 44x the cost. With a 4th order xover, there's lots of components. Xover parts are one thing they don't make in house, so if premium components were used, the xover parts would likely become the most expensive part of the speakers. But at the same time, when the xover is complex with many parts, use of premium parts is even more important. As the signal has to pass through more of them.

They simply do it because nobody knows the difference anyways, and they would rather put the money into marketing. I have a friend who has been in the industry for over 30 years. He's owned many high end stores, and knows the industry very well. He was over listening to my speakers a few weeks ago. He said

"they sound amazing, and both you and I know those premium parts are a huge contributing factor to this. But I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. By using premium parts like this you are only catering to less than 5% of the market. The majority of people who spend big money and buy gear like this aren't even audiophiles. They are clueless when it comes to anything that's in the box. They buy based on popularity, and looks." Then he reccommended just using cheap parts because nobody cares. Well I know he's probably right, but I'm not going to do it simply because I know the difference it makes. And I would never butcher my product intentionally for profit. Audio to me is to fulfill a passion, not for squeezing every penny of profit I can. If it was just about money, I would just stick to my other business ventures and forget about audio.