WBF Audiophiles and Music

[sbo6]

Well, musicians are statistically known to have little interest in high-end audio systems and in our hobby. But the famous existing few are well used by the audio industry marketing.

Can you please provide a link to your stats? As an amateur musician I think the opposite is true, many are audiophiles whether they know it / acknowledge it or not.

 

[sbo6]

Clapton effectively agreed

Extract from rockcelebritiesnet - (Hendrix jamming with Cream)

"It was a great opportunity for Jimi Hendrix, and he definitely wouldn’t ruin it. Hendrix took the stage with Howlin’ Wolf’s ‘Killing Floor,’ and gave a terrific performance from beginning to end. Chas Chandler remembers that Eric Clapton was literally shocked when he heard Hendrix’s guitar playing because he was unbelievably good.

Here is how Chas Chandler remembers this special moment:


“Clapton stood there, and his hands dropped off of the guitar. He lurched off the stage. I thought, ‘Oh God, it’s happening now.’ I went backstage, and he was trying to get a match to a cigarette. I said, ‘Are you alright?’ and he replied, ‘Is he that fucking good?’ He had heard ten bars at the most. Within a week, he had his hair frizzed and would come by our flat anytime that he had a spare moment, to be with Hendrix.”

Later on, in an interview, Eric Clapton described Jimi Hendrix’s performance by saying that although Jimi did just a few of his playing tricks, it was enough for Clapton to be highly impressed. Eric Clapton also stated that his life has never been the same again after seeing Hendrix playing on that stage

Eric Clapton’s words on Hendrix’s performance:

“He played just about every style you could think of, and not in a flashy way. I mean, he did a few of his tricks, like playing with his teeth and behind his back, but it wasn’t in an upstaging sense at all, and that was it. He walked off, and my life was never the same again.”

Nostalgia is a helluva drug...

 

[microstrip]

Can you please provide a link to your stats? As an amateur musician I think the opposite is true, many are audiophiles whether they know it / acknowledge it or not.

I do not have formal statistics that I can quickly find, although I saw numbers in non US magazines about inquires made in large orchestras - less than 5% had shown interest in high-end audio. A member of our largest orchestra is an audiophile and tells us that most of his colleagues have little interest in high-end audio. Dealers I know well tell me the same - musicians usually buy a simple system on recommendation, but are not audiophiles. And very few come to high-end shops.

Anyway it is a common subject of talk in audio forums - see for example PSAudio "Why do musicians ignore high-end audio" https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/musicians-and-high-end-audio/ or the words of Keith Yates decades ago, showing the situation is not new:

"Footnote 2: An importer of very highly esteemed gear used to invite his dealers to Chicago’s Orchestra Hall to hear the CSO every year at a June CES; interest was so low he finally abandoned it. A few years ago a well-known turntable manufacturer invited me to spend a week at their UK factory. Despite the company’s rhetoric about “humming along with the tune,” my hosts and the rest of the dealer group except one preferred pub-crawling to my repeated suggestion that we spend an evening in a concert hall or jazz club. The exception, Jim Shannon, is now with Madrigal Audio Labs [and in 1998 is with Wadia Digital—Ed.]" from https://keithyates.com/652/

BTW, I have read more than once the argument that high-end prices push away musicians from this hobby.

Nice to know you are more optimist than me!

 

[sbo6]

I do not have formal statistics that I can quickly find, although I saw numbers in non US magazines about inquires made in large orchestras - less than 5% had shown interest in high-end audio. A member of our largest orchestra is an audiophile and tells us that most of his colleagues have little interest in high-end audio. Dealers I know well tell me the same - musicians usually buy a simple system on recommendation, but are not audiophiles. And very few come to high-end shops.

Anyway it is a common subject of talk in audio forums - see for example PSAudio "Why do musicians ignore high-end audio" https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/musicians-and-high-end-audio/ or the words of Keith Yates decades ago, showing the situation is not new:

"Footnote 2: An importer of very highly esteemed gear used to invite his dealers to Chicago’s Orchestra Hall to hear the CSO every year at a June CES; interest was so low he finally abandoned it. A few years ago a well-known turntable manufacturer invited me to spend a week at their UK factory. Despite the company’s rhetoric about “humming along with the tune,” my hosts and the rest of the dealer group except one preferred pub-crawling to my repeated suggestion that we spend an evening in a concert hall or jazz club. The exception, Jim Shannon, is now with Madrigal Audio Labs [and in 1998 is with Wadia Digital—Ed.]" from https://keithyates.com/652/

BTW, I have read more than once the argument that high-end prices push away musicians from this hobby.

Nice to know you are more optimist than me!

Thanks for the reply and information. I wonder if part of the low # of musicians you report is because they were specific to classical or jazz? I bet there may be more into rock, maybe even rap based on what I see via FB groups.

 

[tima]

"Footnote 2: An importer of very highly esteemed gear used to invite his dealers to Chicago’s Orchestra Hall to hear the CSO every year at a June CES; interest was so low he finally abandoned it. A few years ago a well-known turntable manufacturer invited me to spend a week at their UK factory. Despite the company’s rhetoric about “humming along with the tune,” my hosts and the rest of the dealer group except one preferred pub-crawling to my repeated suggestion that we spend an evening in a concert hall or jazz club. The exception, Jim Shannon, is now with Madrigal Audio Labs [and in 1998 is with Wadia Digital—Ed.]" from https://keithyates.com/652/

Perhaps reasons why musicians are less interested in high-end audio -- they (or at least these dealers) are not interested in them.

Any information on conductors?

Unless they are first chairs at top orchestras I suspect muscians make less than dealers.

On the other hand - musicians have high audio as their job -- they don't need to reproduce at home what they have at work. They live what others call a reference.

 

[PYP]

On the other hand - musicians have high audio as their job -- they don't need to reproduce at home what they have at work. They live what others call a reference.

And perhaps because of that reference, musicians can hear into the music on simple systems that wouldn't do the job for me (have experienced this several times).

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sure. I understand what you are saying - I know that note. By asking about why music is not discussed it is not my intent to bifurcate music from sound, saying which are notes and which are sounds. That note you hear at the end of "Guarda che Luna" may have the appeal to you that it does coming as the last note of that song - a note in contet vs hearing a singular sound without the music. Would you play a record with only that final note recorded? Maybe.

My point about train sounds (which some seemed to miss) was that indeed we don't listen to the sounds of special effects, we listen to music while we claim interest in sound. While it can be interesting in and of itself, sound alone is devoid of content and context. I enjoy sound as music just as I enjoy gear that makes the music sound more realistic, whereas I do not care about sound because it causes the gear to operate. We are humans and part of that is our ability to hear sound -- audiophiles like sound because good sound is pleasing and most of the time the most pleasing sound is music. One is a means, the other an end - we should be able to talk about both together

I believe for many audiophiles they are listening to their sounds while claiming a primary interest in music. Indicators are perhaps in choosing to listen more in recordings primarily recognised for their reference sound quality over their music performance quality, or in choosing formats recognised for superior sound quality over greater music accessibility.

I genuinely believe this is very much an audiophile forum and not primarily a music based forum Tim. I prefer music to sounds myself, but some seem to love the quality of their sound first. I’m not saying their isn’t great value in championing greater music appreciation but just that it’s not where the focus fundamentally is. I’m not saying people here don’t value music but more potentially it’s just about priorities.

 

[tima]

I believe for many audiophiles they are listening to their sounds while claiming a primary interest in music.

This 'sounds like' you believe many of those to whom you refer are disengenuous, doing one thing while claiming to do something else. I can't speak to that. I suggest reading the thread The Music or the Gear?, which prompted my opening post, then perhaps share your above thought there.

Regardless of the reason you believe people are listening, they are listening to music.

I genuinely believe this is very much an audiophile forum and not primarily a music based forum Tim.

I don't think anyone has said WBF is primarily a music forum - have they? That was never my message -- I asked why there is a disinclination or inability to talk about music.

 

[the sound of Tao]

This 'sounds like' you believe many of those to whom you refer are disengenuous, doing one thing while claiming to do something else. I can't speak to that. I suggest reading the thread The Music or the Gear?, which prompted my opening post, then perhaps share your above thought there.

Regardless of the reason you believe people are listening, they are listening to music.



I don't think anyone has said WBF is primarily a music forum - have they? That was never my message -- I asked why there is a disinclination or inability to talk about music.

Disenguous… hmmm I don’t think it’s inability and perhaps more as you say a disinclination.

 

[Fishfood]

To that end I started numerous music threads and nobody cares so gave up.

better off at Steve Hoffman’s place for music

You just have to look at the what's spinning to know that you're going to get very little interest in a music thread. I'll leave it at that. Discogs also has some nice music discussions.

 

[tima]

Disenguous… hmmm I don’t think it’s inability and perhaps more as you say a disinclination.

Or disinclination due to lack of familiarity or knowledge, or the popular "comfort level". It's perfectly understandable.

 

[wil]

I believe for many audiophiles they are listening to their sounds while claiming a primary interest in music. Indicators are perhaps in choosing to listen more in recordings primarily recognised for their reference sound quality over their music performance quality, or in choosing formats recognised for superior sound quality over greater music accessibility.

I genuinely believe this is very much an audiophile forum and not primarily a music based forum Tim. I prefer music to sounds myself, but some seem to love the quality of their sound first. I’m not saying their isn’t great value in championing greater music appreciation but just that it’s not where the focus fundamentally is. I’m not saying people here don’t value music but more potentially it’s just about priorities.

I think the Sounds and Music dichotomy is a false one.

Many of my deepest music experiences have been when I can quiet my mind and let myself experience the sound as it is without layering on cognitive associations. There can be different ways of listening.

Good recordings and a good system just brings one closer to the sounds/music without a lot of crap for the brain to sort through.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I can listen to music even if the sound is fatiguing or otherwise subjectively unappealing. But I cannot engage emotionally with music unless the sound first passes the hurdle of allowing me to relax.

 

[rando]

There is a recent thread titled The Music or the Gear that asks you to weigh in on your goal as an Audiophile - is it the music, the gear or both. I doubt few if any will say they are exclusively interested in music or gear but not the other. Many will say something like "gear is necessary to reproducing music" or "the gear serves the music." Few will say "music is a reason to operate the gear" or some such.

Reading through that thread got me thinking about audiophiles and music in terms of WBF world. If we were to go by what we see here at WBF one could easily conclude that the vast majority of interest orients toward equipment and home reproduction. Yes, there is a Music Forum largely consisting of messages about "What I'm Playing", often with album covers, or what passes for album covers from the streaming world. But the Vinyl and DAC forums have more messages. There is a smattering of threads about particular pieces of music mostly focused on what is the best recording. We read countless threads on digital vs analog but there are none on Clapton vs Hendrix, a raging debate in college. There is very little discussion about even the most basic music description words though Karen Sumner tried to generate interest there. Would you know an arpeggio if you heard one? Lot's of people hate some of Bartok's works but few can tell you why. Some will say "Who is Bartok?" What are the instruments in Ellington's orchestra?

Many are of the school that sez: "I don't need to understand it to enjoy it." Music for pleasure seems to be the order of they day - the limit of music appreciation at WBF. I don't say that in a derogatory way -- it is what it is. Given that we don't find much of it here, why do you think audiophiles on WBF are uncomfortable or incapable or disinclined to talk about music?

The old adage dealing with harsh reality there is always a taller mountain and someone who has stood upon it seems a quite apt response. Some may actually find this reduced activity level noted above quite enjoyable for all it disallows. One of the countless distinctions that separate WBF from other sites. Given the modern capacity for self expression it could be very well founded to protect both mountain and oracle from online abuse. While acting as a gateway.

A more sensitive read on the music based sub-forums invites recognizing a large majority visiting topics are beyond capable of pinning down the end result of their freshened awareness in quick order at some distance from a given starting point. Scenting the way to where honey is made and silk spun long ago was preserved. Absence of discussion upfront is by no means indicative a lack of reply. Being liked, favored through praise and recognition, as well as direct quoting should largely be acts preserved for the artist to reap. The smaller image and establishment of expertise possible pose no more a deterrent than only rare chance to stand partway up the mountain. 10K or 100K albums are both unfeasible to hear in one lifetime while being beyond common sized collections. Very few surmount more than a 100 personal high points with any regularity. Then there are those who wrote the book on subjects being handled with lesser hands who also lived in the midst of what is currently under the magnifier.

There is another sociological element defining the personalities and conduct separating music discussions here and on many other sites. A more definitive reasoning for near quiet sometimes broken by replies slipped in very late. Governance of professional conduct allowing only the most timid representations on social media, or any other personal path to less threatening ground, readily leads towards gentle landings in music discussions which are often not even discussions.


High End gear is the less accessible requisite. It can be savored in longer discussions where finite points draw out the interplay between components yet to be experienced. Were there a subscription allowing rental of the highest level approximation the physical product within your own system? Madness would soon devolve towards boredom and eventually into lack of reply. Nauseatingly detailed instructions towards understanding a personal system would be redundant when anyone could access all but the most glaringly important of discoveries. In present company I doubt many would come up for air till nearer end of the decade. Which decade is the question.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think the Sounds and Music dichotomy is a false one.

Many of my deepest music experiences have been when I can quiet my mind and let myself experience the sound as it is without layering on cognitive associations. There can be different ways of listening.

Good recordings and a good system just brings one closer to the sounds/music without a lot of crap for the brain to sort through.

I don’t see a focus on quality of music performance and sound quality in a recording as a dichotomy. These things can be very enmeshed. We train ourselves to our own different kinds of listening and focus of perception so clearly we can have our own pattern of listening.

If the focus for us is (at in some times and in periods of our lives perhaps more than others) in a directed or pointed analysis of what we are hearing be it in assessing what the system is doing or that new piece of gear is doing or comparing changes in setup from components to tweaks and even in gear setting in we can be setting up a state of analytical listening as a pattern. When we are regularly pointing our perception to look for differences in various parts of what we are hearing then this could perhaps just become a more default type of listening for some. I’ve known some guys for who that is the obsession and their heavy focus for all the years that I’ve known them. Our perception and consciousness clearly responds to pattern training and to expectation.

Perhaps even when we click on WBF that reasonable expectation from experience that we are here to learn mostly about gear rather than music might even be a factor in why the conversations aren’t strongly wired that way. I’m not sure but I do know that whatever the reasons it just isn’t the pattern of culture here to make music analysis one of the hot topics of discussion. If any want to change that it might take building culture through richness in this and a desire to know more. If it became dry and analytical and had a spirit of judging it might not have much appeal. Things like biographical background on musicians and composers would be more appealing for me because it could help me understand the context and the spirit of the musicians.

I’d add that there is already too much confusion about what is best for quite a few on forums who endlessly debate and get heated over what I often feel is subjectivity and the thought that posters might rail against Schubert or Chopin or Mingus or Beiber (which one I will not say) and even more mortifying declare any composer or genre as best is a disturbing one. Some things are more sacred than others and of greater value, music for me is a far weightier and greater religion than gear can ever be.

 

[microstrip]

I think the Sounds and Music dichotomy is a false one.

Many of my deepest music experiences have been when I can quiet my mind and let myself experience the sound as it is without layering on cognitive associations. There can be different ways of listening.

Good recordings and a good system just brings one closer to the sounds/music without a lot of crap for the brain to sort through.

I can't understand why people insist on ranking apples with oranges. Sound reproduction is a technological hobby, music is an art. Perhaps summing all the parcels I spend more time with gear, social aspect of the hobby and forums than sitting listening to music with exclusive dedication and going to concerts. Does it mean that my my interest in music is secondary? Or just because someone has four amplifiers and just three sets of Mahler symphonies he loves the quality of sound first?

BTW, how does some one show that he prefers music to sounds? Listening to LPs with many clicks and pops or vintage first generation CD players?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i don't worry too much about any percentage of posting about music as some sort of check mark. my posting is mostly related system improvement, or musical listening experiences. i am wanting the music to sound as real as possible.

but music exploration for me is more a singular pastime.

when i listen to music, sometimes it's familiar music so i'm not in learning mode, but these days a larger part of my music listening is to new music and new artists, the big benefit of streaming, and buying a 3000 pressing classical collection. with streaming i'm reading about the new artist, and related artists. i'm getting on line and investigating the artist and other recordings. i lose myself into this process. same with these pressings from the collection. i'm deep diving into them and related music.

occasionally some of that will make it's way to a forum post. but mostly not. like the tip of the iceberg, i have plenty of purely music focus going on by myself. in my own way following my own muse. and i'm really happy with my approach and it's very satisfying and my musical horizons are expanding.

 

[tima]

I think the Sounds and Music dichotomy is a false one.

Many of my deepest music experiences have been when I can quiet my mind and let myself experience the sound as it is without layering on cognitive associations. There can be different ways of listening.

Good recordings and a good system just brings one closer to the sounds/music without a lot of crap for the brain to sort through.

I'm inclined to agree about the false dichotomy -- even those who believe in it find themselves listening to music when they listen to sound. The latter is not an end goal. And I agree about there be different levels of cognitive awareness -- brain activity -- when listening.

The pull of music can be very strong, shifting awareness away from the cerebral cortex and into the limbic area of the brain where analytic/cognitive activity is reduced. A 'thoughtless' mind can ride on music or allow music to take it where the music will. Listening to sound is primarily cognitive -- it may induce some pleasure but sound alone has no inherent rhythm or dynamic -- thus it is without direction, unable to drive or carry a lower cognitive state anywhere. Sound alone has no message.

That this obtains is a result of learning from listening, actually having the experience to gain understanding. It cannot reasoned into as some are attempting. An agitated mind, one always analyzing and evaluating, carving experience into boxes and categories is perhaps less susceptible to the power of music than one sufficiently in control of ones self to let go.

 

[facten]

but music exploration for me is more a singular pastime.

when i listen to music, sometimes it's familiar music so i'm not in learning mode, but these days a larger part of my music listening is to new music and new artists, ..... i'm getting on line and investigating the artist and other recordings. i lose myself into this process ...i'm deep diving into them and related music.

..., i have plenty of purely music focus going on by myself. in my own way following my own muse. and i'm i'm really happy with my approach and it's very satisfying and my musical horizons are expanding

Find myself in the same place place Mike. . Search for new artists/music every day, get it and sit back listen and enjoy. Also, share what I've found with some friends so they can check it out and see if it might be of interest to them personally.

 

[the sound of Tao]

An agitated mind, one always analyzing and evaluating, carving experience into boxes and categories is perhaps less susceptible to the power of music than one sufficiently in control of ones self to let go.

This agitated analytical mind less susceptible to (whole) power of music is a great way of putting it. If underneath everything we are not in flow and at ease with our system sound and it doesn’t have essential rightness the drive to change becomes a fairly ceaseless underlying agitation. Its exactly the same in a landscape design. Until there is right balance, and right flow, form and fit in a design (like in a system) the itching of agitation is never far away.

At stages analysis is clearly important but some spend much less time there and some deliver their creations fairly much whole. I’ve always imagined that’s what Mozart’s brilliantly lit process may well have been. Not the (perhaps more time working the analytical) darker struggle that perhaps was the process of Beethoven. For me being in flow state and the state of union is the final summative state and in that perfect balance of flow, form and cohesive fit is the core of where the full whole perception of music is I figure.