WBF Audiophiles and Music

[tima]

This agitated analytical mind less susceptible to (whole) power of music is a great way of putting it. If underneath everything we are not in flow and at ease with our system sound and it doesn’t have essential rightness the drive to change becomes a fairly ceaseless underlying agitation. Its exactly the same in a landscape design. Until there is right balance, and right flow, form and fit in a design (like in a system) the itching of agitation is never far away.

At stages analysis is clearly important but some spend much less time there and some deliver their creations fairly much whole. I’ve always imagined that’s what Mozart’s brilliantly lit process may well have been. Not the (perhaps more time working the analytical) darker struggle that perhaps was the process of Beethoven. For me being in flow state and the state of union is the final summative state and in that perfect balance of flow, form and cohesive fit is the core of where the full whole perception of music is I figure.

I agree with most of what you wrote. Alas, Beethoven - imagine being a talented composer and turning deaf.

That drive to change is part of the audiophile's disease torment tribulation that many seem to share. I was driven to change because what I value in listening has changed not because I was dissatisfied with what I had. Would that it had not taken so long for the obvious to appear.

And yet there are millions of people who can snap their fingers and sing along with the car radio. The idea that one cannot be 'emotionally engaged' to music without 'proper sound' - that one needs optimized sound from an exotic stereo system may seem perverse to some to whom music is no less a part of their life than that of an audiophile. I remember being quite happy listening to Hide Tide and Green Grass on a tinny Silvertone stereo.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I agree with most of what you wrote. Alas, Beethoven - imagine being a talented composer and turning deaf.

That drive to change is part of the audiophile's disease torment tribulation that many seem to share. I was driven to change because what I value in listening has changed not because I was dissatisfied with what I had. Would that it had not taken so long for the obvious to appear.

And yet there are millions of people who can snap their fingers and sing along with the car radio. The idea that one cannot be 'emotionally engaged' to music without 'proper sound' - that one needs optimized sound from an exotic stereo system may seem perverse to some to whom music is no less a part of their life than that of an audiophile. I remember being quite happy listening to Hide Tide and Green Grass on a tinny Silvertone stereo.

I love Mozart but I just resonate more deeply with Beethoven. That power to overcome is just breathtaking.

 

[PeterA]

That drive to change is part of the audiophile's disease torment tribulation that many seem to share. I was driven to change because what I value in listening has changed not because I was dissatisfied with what I had. Would that it had not taken so long for the obvious to appear.

Tim, This is exactly what happened to me. Sometimes it just takes a long time to witness and understand that which then becomes necessary. Once it happens, that is it. One knows.

 

[PYP]

Succumbing to the obvious. Well said. Isn't this the same process we might experience in our own field of work/expertise. You tune out the conversation about how it is supposed to go, conventional wisdom, what works for others, and choose your own path. Resistance is replaced with "flow."

Sometimes, as I have tried (successfully) to reduce the pinch points and noise in my setup, I think that perhaps I should apply the same to myself. Reduce the noise so that "harmony" results.

For me, Mozart is the ultimate expression of harmony. And part of that is fully resolving the themes (some statements, some questions) that he builds (or finds?). It reminds me of a story told by a musician who was teaching a college music appreciation course. A group of musicians were meeting over the period of a few days. One night, just as folks were getting into bed, one pianist started to play a piece up until the very end. He paused just before the last notes and then stopped and went to his room. No one could sleep. Finally, someone else got up, played the last few notes and went back to bed. Everyone was then able to sleep.

 

[stehno]

There is a recent thread titled The Music or the Gear that asks you to weigh in on your goal as an Audiophile - is it the music, the gear or both. I doubt few if any will say they are exclusively interested in music or gear but not the other. Many will say something like "gear is necessary to reproducing music" or "the gear serves the music." Few will say "music is a reason to operate the gear" or some such.

Reading through that thread got me thinking about audiophiles and music in terms of WBF world. If we were to go by what we see here at WBF one could easily conclude that the vast majority of interest orients toward equipment and home reproduction. Yes, there is a Music Forum largely consisting of messages about "What I'm Playing", often with album covers, or what passes for album covers from the streaming world. But the Vinyl and DAC forums have more messages. There is a smattering of threads about particular pieces of music mostly focused on what is the best recording. We read countless threads on digital vs analog but there are none on Clapton vs Hendrix, a raging debate in college. There is very little discussion about even the most basic music description words though Karen Sumner tried to generate interest there. Would you know an arpeggio if you heard one? Lot's of people hate some of Bartok's works but few can tell you why. Some will say "Who is Bartok?" What are the instruments in Ellington's orchestra?

Many are of the school that sez: "I don't need to understand it to enjoy it." Music for pleasure seems to be the order of they day - the limit of music appreciation at WBF. I don't say that in a derogatory way -- it is what it is. Given that we don't find much of it here, why do you think audiophiles on WBF are uncomfortable or incapable or disinclined to talk about music?

Perhaps because entertainment is ultimately what music is all about? Much like any other pursuit e.g. auto racing, basketball, hockey, etc.

With regard to music playback aka high-end audio, it's still about entertainment (music) but it's also about perfecting / improving that entertainment. But do I really need to think like Michael Jordan to greatly appreciate his level of basketball play? Or do I really need to understand all aspects of the game or every other players to greatly appreciate Jordan's artistry? Do I really need to understand every aspect of a Formula 1 car before I can appreciate watching a race? Or do I really need to understand every aspect of a Formula 1 car before I can drive it and perhaps even win a race or two? Of course not.

The reality is that there are numerous aspects or sectors to high-end audio just as in every other endeavor / pursuit and there is 24 hours in a day. That implies that many of us must prioritize which aspects of playback music we pursue. Like the fella' says, no matter what we deem to be the highest priority, all other priorities must suffer for the one highest priority.

That said, there's nothing wrong whatsoever with pursuing greater understanding / appreciation of music. But at what cost? I've yet to encounter a single enthusiast anywhere that has understood/appreciated their way to a genuinely superior playback system. To the contrary, I find it extremely rare to encounter an individual with elevated levels of music understanding / appreciation to also possess elevelated levels of discernment / interpretation of what they hear.

To the best of my knowledge, hi-end audio is or was intended to be all about the pursuit of greater levels of music playback (higher fidelity) and no amount of greater levels of music understanding / appreciation will achieve this. At some point we have to lift the hood and get our hands dirty if we want to experience genuine playback improvements.

Too many times I see comments like Karen Sumner's suggesting we need to hear every possible note from every possible instrument in every possible venue to appreciate what we hear. Oh yeah, and it must be unamplified instruments in an acoustic space or there can be no appreciation.

IMO, that's just another music lover evangelizing their enthusiasm or love for music. I don't know about others but I don't recall a single instance where Sumners actually shared with us how we might genuinely improve our playback systems' levels of musicality despite her repeatedly saying that was her utimate intention.

For me, I've no problem with music lovers. Well, except when they insist we must think like them and understand / appreciate music like them before we can improve our playback systems' level of musicality - which seems all too frequent around here. As such, I pretty much just see these types mostly as dazed and confused. At least when it comes to actually improving their playback systems.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Perhaps because entertainment is ultimately what music is all about? Much like any other pursuit e.g. auto racing, basketball, hockey, etc

Wow, such a bottom dwelling level of appreciation in the value of music… why am I not all surprised. Maybe your lacklustre choice in gear and your lack of depth in music culture and in real experience holds you back from any valuable levels of appreciation of the richness and substance and meaning and deeper context of music. If we hadn’t thought we had hit rock bottom before well we are there now. What a horrible turgid splash of pointless rubbish contained within such a small spew of meaningless thoughts. Bravo!

 

[stehno]

Wow, such a bottom dwelling level of appreciation in the value of music… why am I not all surprised. Maybe your lacklustre choice in gear and your lack of depth in music culture and in real experience holds you back from any valuable levels of appreciation of the richness and substance and meaning and deeper context of music. If we hadn’t thought we had hit rock bottom before well we are there now. What a horrible turgid splash of pointless rubbish contained within such a small spew of meaningless thoughts. Bravo!

LOL. Maybe you're right. Or maybe you just substantiated my point?

 

[cjfrbw]

I thought ad hominems were restricted to two consecutive words or less here. Entire ad hominem run on paragraphs are forbidden.

 

[stehno]

the Sound of Tao's response was interesting to say the very least. I doubt he realizes there exists different levels or intensities of entertainment. And not just for the high-end audio endeavor but for all endeavors. For if he did, I seriously doubt he would have tried to interpret or pawn off the word entertainment almost like one-size entertainment fits all. That would be rather sillly or closed-minded if he did but then again, nothing surprises me anymore. Or perhaps SoT thinks that those who lack his presumed level of music understanding / appreciation (culture?) are an inferior species? Why else would he respond with such venom?

But I have a question for the Sound of Tao. With his presumably elevated levels of music understanding / appreciation or perhaps what he calls "culture", I'm curious if he thinks he's getting more or less entertainment from his playback system than I'm getting from mine? And if he's not experiencing greater levels of entertainment, then who's the real bottom dweller here?

I also had to chuckle about his lack luster gear comment. If per chance SoT experiences less entertainment from his playback system than me (I'm betting he is), then perhaps he doesn't yet realize that the phrase "lack luster gear" also has different meanings to different people - at least from a performance perspective. IOW, shouldn't lack luster gear belong to those whose level of entertainment is less than it ought to be? Or perhaps in his mind the bling is a performance requirement in high-end audio?

Perhaps SoT doesn't yet realize there exists different meanings when it comes to words like knowledge and understanding toward building a truly superior playback system? Perhpas he doesn't yet realize there exists different meanings / interpretations regarding how a truly musical playback system ought to sound?

As for Sound of Tao's remark about my potential lack of music culture, what is the value of possessing music "culture" if it's espoused by what seems like rabid dogs? IMO, such a "culture" sounds far more like clanging cymbals.

 

[tima]

As for Sound of Tao's remark about my potential lack of music culture, what is the value of possessing music "culture" if it's espoused by what seems like rabid dogs?

Some people enjoy learning about the music they choose to hear. Stating that does not reflect rabidity. I have not read anyone saying that there is a requirement to understand music in order to enjoy hearing it -- it is not clear who are the "rabid dogs" to whom you refer.

I enjoy learning about the lives of different composers and different eras of music creation. I understand some about music from my past lessons and I know how to read a score. That's me and I'm not ashamed of it. Others can go for decades with fascination about audio equipment and have little interest in learning about music. Some people enjoy comparing or just talking about performances and performers, others don't. If you have no interest, that's you. I see no point in comparing some quantum of my experience with someone else's.

 

[PYP]

Perhaps because entertainment is ultimately what music is all about?

Maybe not. Not to be too highfalutin, but after watching Sonny Rollins live I realized that I needed to work harder, much harder to get better at whatever I was good at. And that the process of mastery continues even after the level of achievement is high. (And that one could teach other musicians during a performance).

Nothing wrong/bad with entertainment, but that does not describe the totality of music and how various people interact with it.

 

[the sound of Tao]

the Sound of Tao's response was interesting to say the very least. I doubt he realizes there exists different levels or intensities of entertainment. And not just for the high-end audio endeavor but for all endeavors. For if he did, I seriously doubt he would have tried to interpret or pawn off the word entertainment almost like one-size entertainment fits all. That would be rather sillly or closed-minded if he did but then again, nothing surprises me anymore. Or perhaps SoT thinks that those who lack his presumed level of music understanding / appreciation (culture?) are an inferior species? Why else would he respond with such venom?

But I have a question for the Sound of Tao. With his presumably elevated levels of music understanding / appreciation or perhaps what he calls "culture", I'm curious if he thinks he's getting more or less entertainment from his playback system than I'm getting from mine? And if he's not experiencing greater levels of entertainment, then who's the real bottom dweller here?

I also had to chuckle about his lack luster gear comment. If per chance SoT experiences less entertainment from his playback system than me (I'm betting he is), then perhaps he doesn't yet realize that the phrase "lack luster gear" also has different meanings to different people - at least from a performance perspective. IOW, shouldn't lack luster gear belong to those whose level of entertainment is less than it ought to be? Or perhaps in his mind the bling is a performance requirement in high-end audio?

Perhaps SoT doesn't yet realize there exists different meanings when it comes to words like knowledge and understanding toward building a truly superior playback system? Perhpas he doesn't yet realize there exists different meanings / interpretations regarding how a truly musical playback system ought to sound?

As for Sound of Tao's remark about my potential lack of music culture, what is the value of possessing music "culture" if it's espoused by what seems like rabid dogs? IMO, such a "culture" sounds far more like clanging cymbals.

I’ve always thought of your videos, your choice of gear and your thoughts about hifi as similarly lacklustre… I find nothing entertaining in any of it and the spirit and the context of anything you post is so often largely negative and overblown. I’ve never learnt anything meaningful from you and nothing I’ve ever read by you suggests you know anything about setting up a system much at all. It’s all blahfest. So when you post how little music means to you I’m not at all surprised. But that shouldn’t matter to you at all… it definitely means nothing to me. I moved on ages ago. Some people don’t really value music, it’s not important and I’m not judgemental about it. It is what it is. As long as you enjoy your system and videos and thoughts that’s all that counts.

 

[tima]

It is what it is. As long as you enjoy your system and videos and thoughts ...

+1

I thought the disparagement of music appreciation unwarranted. I "turned audiophile" because of music and the fact I like higher quality sound hasn't turned me away from my love of music.

The words we use for sound - often taken from reviews, magazines and forums - and the words we use for music are different and the latter vocabulary is less familiar to many - but the object of the words is the same.

Consider a simple phrase: "a nicely articulated arpeggio". Is that a sound description or a music description? To me it is both: "Nicely articulated" might mean "realistic transients with clarity between notes", whereas 'arpeggio' is a music term that describes playing the individual notes of a chord one after the other, instead of playing a single set of notes together. Could that be an apt description of something you might hear from your stereo?

 

[the sound of Tao]

+1

I thought the disparagement of music appreciation unwarranted. I "turned audiophile" because of music and the fact I like higher quality sound hasn't turned me away from my love of music.

The words we use for sound - often taken from reviews, magazines and forums - and the words we use for music are different and the latter vocabulary is less familiar to many - but the object of the words is the same.

Consider a simple phrase: "a nicely articulated arpeggio". Is that a sound description or a music description? To me it is both: "Nicely articulated" might mean "realistic transients with clarity between notes", whereas 'arpeggio' is a music term that describes playing the individual notes of a chord one after the other, instead of playing a single set of notes together. Could that be an apt description of something you might hear from your stereo?

I happen to have the same starting point, music is my passion and audio is my hobby. I have come to appreciate we are all here for different things after thinking for some long time (naively) that we all have the same drivers.

In terms of how I evaluate performance I’m fairly slow and considered. I focus on a piece of music and I research good reviews for the best versions and simply listen and evaluate. For example I shortlisted Brahms piano concertos down to two sets of recordings then listened to what most held me enthralled or engaged, then I referenced what I have grown to understand of Brahms after 50 years of listening to Brahms (among many other composers).

Last month my focus was Shostakovich symphony’s, the weeks before it was getting my head around various great performances of Sibelius concertos and symphonies… over the years I have slowly worked through a range of my favourite composers and conductors to discover what I find most compelling and flawless.

For some music is just entertainment or more of a way of demonstrating and evaluating the performance of their systems, for me it is the richest most expressive language on the planet and the focus of all my listening.

It is my greatest appreciation and it is the alpha and omega for my relating to deeper values of a rich and personal communication. I could care less that some don’t find it special, I have great friends who are first and foremost great music lovers and other friends who are committed audiophiles, I love it when I find that matching combination but that is more rare.

I don’t come at this from the angle of music academic but rather as committed music listener and music appreciator and music lover. Music was written to be understood in a range of ways. I prefer it when I am flooded by it. I love it at its most essential and direct. I like to get recommendations from others but just as happy for Roon to draw my attention to new possibilities and open my eyes to new music. I like that others have different approaches but after 50 years I have come to trust in my own process of appreciation and look to other sources for my musical development than audio forums where the focus is just different. I’d love it if music was more essential and more integrated here but still I get great value even if it is simply just more peripheral than audio. I am essentially a pragmatist.

 

[PYP]

I happen to have the same starting point, music is my passion and audio is my hobby. I have come to appreciate we are all here for different things after thinking for some long time (naively) that we all have the same drivers.

In terms of how I evaluate performance I’m fairly slow and considered. I focus on a piece of music and I research good reviews for the best versions and simply listen and evaluate. For example I shortlisted Brahms piano concertos down to two sets of recordings then listened to what most held me enthralled or engaged, then I referenced what I have grown to understand of Brahms after 50 years of listening to Brahms (among many other composers).

Last month my focus was Shostakovich symphony’s, the weeks before it was getting my head around various great performances of Sibelius concertos and symphonies… over the years I have slowly worked through a range of my favourite composers and conductors to discover what I find most compelling and flawless.

For some music is just entertainment or more of a way of demonstrating and evaluating the performance of their systems, for me it is the richest most expressive language on the planet and the focus of all my listening.

It is my greatest appreciation and it is the alpha and omega for my relating to deeper values of a rich and personal communication. I could care less that some don’t find it special, I have great friends who are first and foremost great music lovers and other friends who are committed audiophiles, I love it when I find that matching combination but that is more rare.

I don’t come at this from the angle of music academic but rather as committed music listener and music appreciator and music lover. Music was written to be understood in a range of ways. I prefer it when I am flooded by it. I love it at its most essential and direct. I like to get recommendations from others but just as happy for Roon to draw my attention to new possibilities and open my eyes to new music. I like that others have different approaches but after 50 years I have come to trust in my own process of appreciation and look to other sources for my musical development than audio forums where the focus is just different. I’d love it if music was more essential and more integrated here but still I get great value even if it is simply just more peripheral than audio. I am essentially a pragmatist.

A wonderful book that is both about listening to Classical music and the creative processes of writing and conducting, written by Haruki Murakami (I previously thought he was primarily a Jazz fan): Absolutely on Music: Conversations with Seiji Ozawa. They spin vinyl and discuss what they hear.

 

[rando]

A wonderful book that is both about listening to Classical music and the creative processes of writing and conducting, written by Haruki Murakami (I previously thought he was primarily a Jazz fan): Absolutely on Music: Conversations with Seiji Ozawa

Either that one or scrub away the decadent excesses of celebrity culture with sobriety of Erich Leinsdorf's "The Composer’s Advocate – A Radical Orthodoxy for Musicians."

It is a near endless source of mirth considering how deeply a Classical audience showing up expecting electronics and light show would bridle upon being met with Maestro Leinsdorf (no less as he unavoidably and quite publicly upbraided his orchestra), or vice versa. A teachable moment in how general melée break out on artistic grounds.

 

[tima]

For example I shortlisted Brahms piano concertos down to two sets of recordings then listened to what most held me enthralled or engaged, then I referenced what I have grown to understand of Brahms after 50 years of listening to Brahms (among many other composers).

I really like Brahm's choral music.

Sturdy, densly orchestrated, mid-19th Century, classical/romantic music with energy, power and beauty... often with a soprano, a baritone, mixed chorus, orchestra and organ ....

Here's A German Requiem with David Zinman

Academic Festival Overture with Bernstein and the Wieners at the MusikVerein.

Bernstein and Abbado are top-notch with this music.

 

[tima]

A wonderful book that is both about listening to Classical music and the creative processes of writing and conducting, written by Haruki Murakami (I previously thought he was primarily a Jazz fan): Absolutely on Music: Conversations with Seiji Ozawa. They spin vinyl and discuss what they hear.

Either that one or scrub away the decadent excesses of celebrity culture with sobriety of Erich Leinsdorf's "The Composer’s Advocate – A Radical Orthodoxy for Musicians."

Thank you PYP and rando for these suggestions. I added Amazon links.

One that I recommend all the time is: What to Listen for in Music by composer Aaron Copland

 

[the sound of Tao]

I really like Brahm's choral music.

Sturdy, densly orchestrated, mid-19th Century, classical/romantic music with energy, power and beauty... often with a soprano, a baritone, mixed chorus, orchestra and organ ....

Here's A German Requiem with David Zinman

Academic Festival Overture with Bernstein and the Wieners at the MusikVerein.

Bernstein and Abbado are top-notch with this music.

Nice! One of my favourite pieces of choral music, it is earthy and as you say densely orchestrated which gives it gravity but Brahms apparently wanted it to be a vessel for the people left behind to be able to express personal grief and the very human and personal scale maybe came out of the intimate nature of Brahm’s experience with it as the writing of it was apparently a response by Brahms to a suicide attempt by his friend Robert Schumann.

I’m pretty sure the John Eliot Gardiner was probably the first version that I bought. I remember on the album cover it had a Gramophone best recording sticker and I enjoyed it so much that I’ve got in quite a few other performances of Brahm’s German Requiem since then. Will have to listen to the Bernstein and Abbado now as well. I really feel Nicholas Harnoncourt also made a great performance with the Wieners.

But I return mostly to the Otto Klemperer with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and the Philharmonia…. such a great piece of music.

 

[tima]

But I return mostly to the Otto Klemperer with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and the Philharmonia…. such a great piece of music.

I will look for that - is it on vinyl?