WBF Audiophiles and Music
- Thread starter tima
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Tim the release was Columbia in 1962 and this performance has had both analogue and digital re-releases since then. While I very much get that you only want the vinyl but do you ever use Qobuz or Tidal (even if just on your phone or through a laptop and headphones) to preview a performance before moving ahead and looking to buy a record.
Heh-heh ... no. It's a tradeoff I choose not to make. More computers and more software means more futzing with configurations and updates - stuff that wants to have a "relationship" with me and eat my time.
I opened my 2009 review of the Lamm LL2.1 linestage with the following:
From 1999 to the expected release of Windows 7 in 2009, Microsoft will have issued six major versions of their Windows operating system -- Windows 98 Second Edition, Millennium Edition, Windows 2000, XP, and Vista -- as well as shifted from 16 to 32 to 64 bits, and sent along countless Service Packs and almost daily security patches and bug fixes. In that decade, how many millions of people have spent how many hours messing around, trying to get Windows to work?
Had we spent a tenth of that time defenestrated from our computers and listening to music played through Lamm electronics, well, I daresay the world might be a better place. In that same decade, Vladimir Lamm has updated his original LL2 tube preamplifier exactly once; in March 2009, Lamm Industries introduced the LL2.1.
I do get that… in my work computers are an industry required necessary evil… tho lately the digital sketching has started to be a bit like digital audio… you know, not quite the same but still very much better than it was not that long ago.
I would say that for me learning about music has greatly accelerated since my switching over to stream but also it could be that eventually if you’re at something long enough some things are bound to sink in
.There’s a lot of more niche music that I’ve been able to explore that I’d never have risked investing a lot of money in without being able to preview that since have become valuable parts in a more diverse music understanding for me… but then even with that there’s always still so much more out there to learn about. But I like that in music and my work with landscape and built form they are both (reassuringly) fairly endless and largely inexhaustible learning journeys.
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I do get that… in my work computers are an industry required necessary evil… tho lately the digital sketching has started to be a bit like digital audio… you know, not quite the same but still very much better than it was not that long ago.
I would say that for me learning about music has greatly accelerated since my switching over to stream but also it could be that eventually if you’re at something long enough some things are bound to sink in
There’s a lot of more niche music that I’ve been able to explore that I’d never have risked investing a lot of money in without being able to preview that since have become valuable parts in a more diverse music understanding for me… but then even with that there’s always still so much more out there to learn about. But I like that in music and my work with landscape and built form they are both (reassuringly) fairly endless and largely inexhaustible learning journeys.
Oh I do understand why folks use streaming for previews, among other things. I'm not disagreeing with that approach at all. It's just not something I'm doing. I was in IT for decades, so there's that. I agree there is likely a lot of niche music and new recordings I don't hear. On the other hand I keep discovering new-to-me recordings on vinyl. I keep mining the rich vein of classical recordings already made. I get interesting exposure from videos that people post here and sometimes take suggestions without hearing first. My two racks are full, or will be full shortly. I suppose it's a 15-20 year old approach but I'm content with it.
Not judgmental about it? You're too funny. Surely you don’t think I’m surprised by your summation of my in-room recordings and me? Like I said earlier, I’m pretty confident you‘ve already substantiated perhaps all of my points in my initial post.
BTW, there exists two prominent definitions for the word lackluster…
- lacking brilliance or vitality
- lacking luster or shine
The first definition could easily be applied to audio while the other could be applied to visual aesthetics (which has zero to do with performance). Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m guessing one of us is struggling with one definition while the other is struggling with the other definition?
Let’s try this. With your elevated levels of music appreciation it looks like the word of the day is lackluster. Below is an in-room recording that’s also not a very well-engineered recording but I came across this a while back and was kinda’ impressed with it. In fact, I thought it was anything but lackluster. But since the word of the day is lackluster, I thought this rather appropriate. Now I get you may claim it’s a POS but that’s not the point. Why not crank ‘er up and suffer through the entire track and then offer a constructive critique of this recording instead of the base or lackluster critique you’ve already given?
Better yet, since we all know words can be so cheap and since you’ve been known to generate a reasonable in-room recording or two, why not pony up your own in-room recording here to demonstrate how a more robust or lively (more like live) a playback system ought to sound? I mean, if a picture is worth a thousand words, then shouldn’t your in-room recording be worth maybe a million words? Oh, yeah. Should you provide an in-room recording, don’t forget to record near/at live performance volume levels so I can hear everything your system’s got to offer. Nothing more lackluster than listening to somebody’s MP3-like recordings, eh?
And of course, I’d also be open to your suggestions how you think I might improve on my playback system’s lackluster performance. After all, we’re here to learn and grow from one another, right? Isn’t that the real point?
Exactly as I suspected, Tao. A nothing burger.
For the rest, I suspect there exists but one reason why Tao has no interest in pursuing matters further. I’m guessing Tao realizes it’s just not possible for him to demonstrate a more robust dynamic (more like live) and less lackluster playback presentation than my own.
Think about it. Given Tao’s hostile even venomous demeanor and lackluster comments made earlier, does anybody here really think he wouldn’t sacrifice a few precious minutes to put me in my place but good – if he could? But alas.
More importantly, it seems Tao likes to present himself as one in possession of presumed elevated levels for music appreciation and yet he struggles with sufficiently comprehending a rather trite word like lackluster from a performance perspective. But if he struggles comprehending a trite word like lackluster, then how much more might he struggle with less trite and more abstract, comprehensive, and/or complex words and concepts used to define what we hear / don’t hear from our playback systems? Seems to me there's always a cost for the choices we make.
Hmmmmm. I wonder it ever occurred to Tao that guys like me are entertained when observing guys like him struggle with some of the preconceived narratives he seems to be battling?
Lackluster my hiney.
Tim, while I admit I have expressed earlier that this forum may not be easy fertile ground for discussion on music I do get that it would be really good to generate more discussion (and love) about music in perhaps terms of recommending performances and also then enriching that by sharing biographical background on the works and on the composers and performers or analysis of what is valuable in the work itself.
So where to start… perhaps it could be just using existing forum headings and so that it might be good to start opening threads such as in say the classical music forum a series of threads looking for best performances of works by specific composers, or best performances by artists (players and conductors).
So that may be perhaps something like most recommended versions of the Shostakovich cello concerto… or more generally perhaps asking for recommended performances of Dvorak chamber music, best Beethoven symphony cycles or say best performances by Slava Rostropovich or greatest Sir John Barbirolli performances etc
In the jazz music forum it could be done by starting separate recommended performance threads by artists so for example best Miles Davis albums or most recommended Coltrane albums etc.
This could extend into other genre forums to things like best albums of prog rock or best albums by specific bands or best performances of electronic music etc.
I suppose as long as the criteria is being primarily focussed on performance over a primary focus on sound quality that the focus is music performance over sound quality… more musicophile rather than just audiophile. I imagine we all have some mix of the two in us (music haters and music agnostics aside) but I figure (much like you) that there is room for expansion into cultivating more music understanding into this audio journey that we all share.
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Yes.
I invite you to look at the Mahler thread I started, whose link is in my signature. It is at a different site. Approaching 25k views, and running since 2012. There is some intellectual discussion but mostly sharing of favorite recorded performances and I see it as a gateway for people to try some of M's music but don't know where to start. Nonetheless It is wide open with no limitations on discussion as long as they are on topic which they have been. (Overall the site is friendlier.) Actually I've planned to try something similar here with another composer but have not put the time to it yet and I'm uncertain if it would succeed here. If you are interested let's talk by PM.
edit: one thing I've noticed since 2012 is the price of well accepted Mahler recordings on vinyl has really gone up!
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Exactly and by a significant margin.
What is ironic is that all gear, and its sonic quality, largely exists in a personal, system / room dependant, subjective vacuum. Seems to me that most WBF members are more interested in the messenger versus the message. A good example is the myriad of digital versus analogue threads.
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Elliot G.
Industry Expert
As the late Peter Green wrote "searching for mysteries without any clues" The internet is a place that people can take surveys of others trying to make informed decisions in an uniformed way. That is my quote
Dirty Harry " A mans got to know his limitations"
ddk said:
WBF is a gear centric forum not a music focused one even so some might be interested in the topic.
I don't agree often with ddk often but I certainly do here.
After over50 years there is so much I don't know yet everyone knows more than I. This i find very interesting.
Just becasue you have the money to buy a Steinway doesn't mean you can play it, just becasue you can play it doesn't mean you can tune it.
Totally different skill sets.
The same is true for Cars and very much true for audio. If you want to learn you need to do the work yourself otherwise you are always searching for those mysteries....
I am a WBF audiophile. I played around with gear for years, did a lot of experimenting, and then I heard a system that took the experience of listening to music to a completely different level. I sold my old system and bought a new system like the one I heard. Now I am focused more on listening to and learning about music.
This afternoon I invited over a friend who wanted to hear my system. He is not an audiophile. He loves music and attends more live concerts than anyone I know. He started buying records again, so I gave him my old college turntable to play his new records on.
He came over and I explained what all the boxes do, what makes my turntable special, and then took the cover off my corner horns. He was mildly interested. Of course he had never seen a system like this before. I told him the speakers and the cartridge were made when he was born. He smiled and said “Let’s listen to some music.”
I played a couple tracks of Musica Nuda for him with the two cartridges for comparison. He told me which one he preferred and then we used that for the rest of the afternoon. It was the vintage cartridge. He looked through the 60 or so LPs I have down in the listening room and told me which ones he wanted to hear.
Sonny Boy Williamson, Portraits in Blues
Thelma Houston, I’ve got the music in me
Sheffield Drum Record with Jim Keltner
Cream, Fresh Cream
Grant Green, Green Street
Sonny Rollins, Way out West
He didn’t say much and didn’t ask about the gear, but he really got into the music. We talked about Sunny Boy’s harmonica, the horns backing up Thelma Houston, and Ginger Baker and the impact of the drum beaten by Jim Keltner. He said he wanted to come back in a few days with his musician friend to listen to more. His musician friend happens to a furniture maker and is the very guy who built the rack supporting my gear. He also suggested we play the Thelma Houston record for yet another friend whom we just heard singing in his band because it would be awfully cool to have them learn that music for their next gig.
The members here may be into the gear more than most, but their systems get them closer to their music. And like this afternoon, they can share their systems with others which is how the real fun happens.
What a great hobby!
This afternoon I invited over a friend who wanted to hear my system. He is not an audiophile. He loves music and attends more live concerts than anyone I know. He started buying records again, so I gave him my old college turntable to play his new records on.
He came over and I explained what all the boxes do, what makes my turntable special, and then took the cover off my corner horns. He was mildly interested. Of course he had never seen a system like this before. I told him the speakers and the cartridge were made when he was born. He smiled and said “Let’s listen to some music.”
I played a couple tracks of Musica Nuda for him with the two cartridges for comparison. He told me which one he preferred and then we used that for the rest of the afternoon. It was the vintage cartridge. He looked through the 60 or so LPs I have down in the listening room and told me which ones he wanted to hear.
Sonny Boy Williamson, Portraits in Blues
Thelma Houston, I’ve got the music in me
Sheffield Drum Record with Jim Keltner
Cream, Fresh Cream
Grant Green, Green Street
Sonny Rollins, Way out West
He didn’t say much and didn’t ask about the gear, but he really got into the music. We talked about Sunny Boy’s harmonica, the horns backing up Thelma Houston, and Ginger Baker and the impact of the drum beaten by Jim Keltner. He said he wanted to come back in a few days with his musician friend to listen to more. His musician friend happens to a furniture maker and is the very guy who built the rack supporting my gear. He also suggested we play the Thelma Houston record for yet another friend whom we just heard singing in his band because it would be awfully cool to have them learn that music for their next gig.
The members here may be into the gear more than most, but their systems get them closer to their music. And like this afternoon, they can share their systems with others which is how the real fun happens.
What a great hobby!
What is interesting about your description of the discussion with your friend is it does not sound like a technical discussion about music. It was not what I would describe as musicology -- a subject in which one can obtain advanced degrees. Several people here who containerize or sub-categorize talking about music (thus avoiding it) seem to think such discussion must some how be 'technical'. Apparently that's a false belief.
Most of the talk on this thread simply reiterates its opening post ...
...saying repeatedly in so many words that WBF is a gear oriented forum -- a statement of the obvious.
But no one addresses the question that is the basis of the thread.
List of sins covered by that statement...
The same reason nobody discusses their wife. At best it warrants addressing unpredictable and indecisive natures or some formalized ritual of weaving our toes together at the very deeply worst.
Mostly I think it signals a shift towards being too old to dance properly. No more inverting women. Ceding way to a changed culture.
It is precisely posts like this (adults acting like children) that has caused me to cease being an active member and significantly compromises WBF's reputation for civilty and integrity. Very sad.
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Put Stehno on my "Ignore" list months ago. Recommend that you do the same rather than letting his antics keep you from participating in the forum.
I don't know the history between any of you and don't really care; and I have no association whatsoever with stehno. I wonder however how the below comment taken from this thread responding to a stenho post doesn't fit the above statement and wasn't called out for exactly the same.
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