WestminsterLab Re-imagining Amplification

[mxk116]

Thanks a lot! Brilliantly clear, well thought of and very helpful. The hight of the front & rear EVPs are the same, correct?

Yes, the EVP's I used are all the same height. The felt covered versions I used are ~ 1 1/4" tall (they do compress a bit depending on the load they are bearing). There is a version with rubber on the top and bottom. That version might be slightly taller.

 

[Robifabs]

Robifabs,

Cable lengths depend on how you configure your bridged pairs. Two methods.

Method one: Use two pairs of discrete XLR cables driven directly from your pre-amplifier outputs. Cable set one is standard phase and cable set two inverted phase. This constitutes one channel. Left or right of a bridged pair, four interconnects make up both channels. In that case, the interconnect length is whatever you choose from pre-amplifier to amplifier.

The next thing needed is the "ground bridge wires" connecting the grounds of each left and right channel pair of amplifiers. Generally, we offer them in 20'' lengths unless for some reason, you do not place the amplifiers side by side which is usual and customary. Longer lengths can, of course, be provided.

In bridged mode, your speaker cables' hot and ground legs are connected to the + binding post of each amplifier pair. No special speaker cable modification is needed.

Method Two:
When using only one set of standard phase interconnects (left and right), connect each channel's left and right cables to the lead amplifier. We then supply two, one each for left and right bridged channels inverted phase interconnects to accomplish the bridging between the amplifiers (also approx. 20" in length).

We can also discuss why and how we decide between these options. For now, suffice it to say that both work splendidly and accomplish the goal of perfectly bridging each channel without fuss or complication.

I am running to an out-of-office meeting but will post a schematic of both methods later today, illuminating how Westminster elegantly accomplishes the goal.

On shelving for your application, carbon fiber is always a suitable material, although it is a bit overkill. Either 1/2" MDF or fabricated sheet plexiglass will work perfectly, providing a stable platform for the top set of amplifiers and the needed clearance. Since we have a machine shop stateside, we can fabricate this for you, and you can purchase a set of bridged amplifiers at no cost.
Note: The Reis is not highly susceptible to air and floor-borne vibration, especially when not placed near your speakers. MX116 has his Reis placed between his powerful Magico S5s; therefore, I suspect the extra steps taken with isolation to be beneficial.

Fun fact: Angus originally designed the Reis for bridged operation. Unlike many amplifiers available for stereo and monoblock operation, the Reis was optimised from day one to be electrically perfect when using a single or a bridged pair of monoblocks.

Thanks a lot Gary. Amazingly helpful!

 

[Mobiusman]

The improvement from removing the JL F113's and replacing them with the tunable SW's was something I could comprehend, but the actual benefit was priceless.. Add to that the bridged REI's was more than I ever projected was possible!

 

[viola]

Thanks a lot Gary! That helps a lot indeed.
The challenge I would have then, would be to add a thin enough shelf in my existing rack, to make the staking work within the available hight of my shelf. Does anyone have an experience with carbon fiber or any thin materials, robust and non resonating enough that I could potentially use to create that additional shelf? It would be resting on the main shelf and benefit from the decoupling of the main stack structure. No perfect but good enough if I don't create new vibrations with the additional shelf I guess... Just thinking up-loud guys. Thanks in advance for any contribution

Robifabs,

One relatively inexpensive but effective approach would be to construct a platform of 18mm baltic birch plywood for the side supports with a 10mm baltic birch (or 6mm panzerholz) top attached to the two sides. The baltic birch top could be glued to the two baltic birch sides. The panzerholz top, although better than baltic birch for resonance control (which is already very very good), cannot be easily glued but would have to be attached by screws. Panzerholz is much more readily available in Europe than in the US, but it can still be obtained in the US through a gentleman in North Carolina. www.usaudiomart.com/details/6ed 49892564-panzerholztankwood/ Obviously, you could use any wood for this type of open platform, but baltic birch (or panzerholz for the top) would be the best from a resonance and performance perspective.

I use a panzerholz stand that is suspended above a maple platform with appropriately sized springs to support my two Rei mono blocs, and I have been very pleased with the results. This spring suspension approach, however, increases height which would likely be problematic given your height constraints.

 

[Robifabs]

Thanks viola! Very good insights. And here I Europe we can rather easily source Norvegian birtch “multipli” (multi-layer) so I will certainly pursue your reco. Will keep you guys posted. Thanks again to all contributors

 

[viola]

Thanks viola! Very good insights. And here I Europe we can rather easily source Norvegian birtch “multipli” (multi-layer) so I will certainly pursue your reco. Will keep you guys posted. Thanks again to all contributors

One other thought: if you or a friend has a table saw (or router), it would be relatively easy to cut a rabbet notch in the top of the 18mm thick side supports with a depth equal to the thickness of the top piece, leaving about 6mm of the side support uncut on the outside. That way, the top would fit nicely into the rabbet notch and this would provide a more secure joint than simply gluing the top to the side. Alternatively, you could also source some inexpensive small metal 90-degree angle supports that could be screwed into the insides of the top and sides.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...quick update on a Quest pre-amp modification. I have been settling in my Taiko Olympus for the past couple of months and am now listening exclusively to their analog card.

The analog output is currently only available as an RCA single-ended solution, so I have been using a set of Cardas Clear adapters into the Quest balanced inputs. It sounds great and it's an easy solution for about 200 bucks.

However, @gleeds suggested I try the SE module for the Quest, now that I have settled on the Taiko Analog card as my preferred workflow.

@lscangus sent over the module super-fast and I installed it yesterday. Easy-peasy.

--Turn off Quest power, disconnect cables, and remove the Quest from your rack. Maybe you can keep it in place, but I prefer to make life easy.
--Remove the carbon-fiber top panel. Perhaps optional, but I like to have room to work and a good line of sight.
--Remove the four screws holding the small carbon-fiber rear plate. I used the spot furthest from the IEC inlet.
--Remove the module from the anti-static bag. Note the small grounding screw in the small plastic bag!
--Slide the module through the opening created by removing the small rear carbon plate.
--Align the module pins with the female fixture and slowly insert the module by pushing gently into place.

Make sure everything is properly aligned before fully seating the module. The module's carbon-fiber face-plate should be flush with the rear chassis.
--Attach face plate to chassis with the four small screws originally holding the "blank" carbon plate.
--Affix the small ground screw to keep the module in place.
--Replace and affix the carbon-fiber top panel.

That's it. Return the Quest to your rack, hook up the RCA cables, energize her and enjoy sweet music.

It sounds great right away, but I suppose anything electronic has a little settling in time.

If in doubt about the process or your ability to remove and re-position tiny screws, just give Gary a call.

 

[cliotta]

Hey, jazz heads. I'm sending out a survey aiming to measure listeners' responses to AI-generated jazz vs. human-composed jazz. I'd love to have some serious jazz fans take the survey and collect more data. Here's the link: https://forms.gle/mouyC8Zd8vj4qg646
And don't forget to fill out the exit form! Thanks!

 

[gleeds]

Hey Cliotti, jazz is my thing, and I am happy to participate. I wanted to know if you wanted to post this request on the WL Forum or perhaps start a dedicated thread for the best results

 

[cliotta]

I'd love that! I'll start a dedicated thread! Thanks for participating!

 

[dbeau]

...quick update on a Quest pre-amp modification. I have been settling in my Taiko Olympus for the past couple of months and am now listening exclusively to their analog card.

The analog output is currently only available as an RCA single-ended solution, so I have been using a set of Cardas Clear adapters into the Quest balanced inputs. It sounds great and it's an easy solution for about 200 bucks.

However, @gleeds suggested I try the SE module for the Quest, now that I have settled on the Taiko Analog card as my preferred workflow.

@lscangus sent over the module super-fast and I installed it yesterday. Easy-peasy.

--Turn off Quest power, disconnect cables, and remove the Quest from your rack. Maybe you can keep it in place, but I prefer to make life easy.
--Remove the carbon-fiber top panel. Perhaps optional, but I like to have room to work and a good line of sight.
--Remove the four screws holding the small carbon-fiber rear plate. I used the spot furthest from the IEC inlet.
--Remove the module from the anti-static bag. Note the small grounding screw in the small plastic bag!
--Slide the module through the opening created by removing the small rear carbon plate.
--Align the module pins with the female fixture and slowly insert the module by pushing gently into place.

Make sure everything is properly aligned before fully seating the module. The module's carbon-fiber face-plate should be flush with the rear chassis.
--Attach face plate to chassis with the four small screws originally holding the "blank" carbon plate.
--Affix the small ground screw to keep the module in place.
--Replace and affix the carbon-fiber top panel.

That's it. Return the Quest to your rack, hook up the RCA cables, energize her and enjoy sweet music.

It sounds great right away, but I suppose anything electronic has a little settling in time.

If in doubt about the process or your ability to remove and re-position tiny screws, just give Gary a call.


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@MarkusBarkus - Great info!
I am to audition Quest/REI soon with Cardas adaptors RCA>XLR but intend to order Quest with RCA input.
How would you judge the difference (if any) between using adapters to RCA Input on Quest ? Thx

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I'll need a bit more time to assess
@dbeau but I do like what I am hearing.

Interestingly, a hifi pal was over today, and what we heard stimulated us to make some speaker position adjustments.

I think that is a good thing, and *maybe* speaks to the idea that it sounds a bit more detailed/precise...enough to suggest an adjustment is needed. It was very interesting.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...hey @dbeau I have been listening to the SE module for a couple of days now, and playing all night as well. This is from the Olympus analog card output, and it really sounds terrific.

My understanding is the SE module will give a bit of added gain for the Quest, FYI; listening bears that out. I don't think I have to A/B with the XLR input.

Perhaps if Taiko produces a balanced output, a switch back to test would be worth trying, but SE out to SE into Quest is excellent. Transparent. Snappy. Great energy.

I think it's pretty choice sounding over here! Good Luck with your demo. The adapters, IMO won't slow you down for the demo, but I do prefer this set-up without them.

 

[dbeau]

...hey @dbeau I have been listening to the SE module for a couple of days now, and playing all night as well. This is from the Olympus analog card output, and it really sounds terrific.

My understanding is the SE module will give a bit of added gain for the Quest, FYI; listening bears that out. I don't think I have to A/B with the XLR input.

Perhaps if Taiko produces a balanced output, a switch back to test would be worth trying, but SE out to SE into Quest is excellent. Transparent. Snappy. Great energy.

I think it's pretty choice sounding over here! Good Luck with your demo. The adapters, IMO won't slow you down for the demo, but I do prefer this set-up without them.

Thank you @MarkusBarkus . UPS flubbed delivery this week for unknown cause - so anxiously waiting. Gary Leeds did send me PCs seperately to insure I had the best for audition (REI/Quest from Rob) so I inserted those into present gear and 'wow' now I'm into $$ for PCs. The relative cost of RCA input module vs. XLR IC is a factor so thanks again.

 

[ctydwn]

thanks in large part to this thread, @Mobiusman ‘s experience on his thread and getting to hear @Damon Von Schweikert and @gleeds discuss the adjustability and technology embedded in the Ultra 7’s via utube, I am expecting VS Ultra 7s in April. I’m beyond excited about it. Can’t wait to hear them in person in my room and look forward to working with such a hallowed company. Thanks again to everyone here.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...duuude! I'm beyond excited for you. Powerful move @ctydwn

 

[lscangus]

...hey @dbeau I have been listening to the SE module for a couple of days now, and playing all night as well. This is from the Olympus analog card output, and it really sounds terrific.

My understanding is the SE module will give a bit of added gain for the Quest, FYI; listening bears that out. I don't think I have to A/B with the XLR input.

Perhaps if Taiko produces a balanced output, a switch back to test would be worth trying, but SE out to SE into Quest is excellent. Transparent. Snappy. Great energy.

I think it's pretty choice sounding over here! Good Luck with your demo. The adapters, IMO won't slow you down for the demo, but I do prefer this set-up without them.

Thanks @MarkusBarkus .We did spend quite a bit of time developing the single-ended input card. We want to develop something which allow customers with RCA-only source to enjoy the fully balanced Quest. The signal is converted to full balanced signal hence there will be a 6db gain.

 

[lscangus]

It’s 5:30 AM Friday night and instead of sleeping I am listening my to my newly completed “BucketList System” and it is 5 days after Damon Von Schweikert (mostly) and I performed the latest update yo my 65 year quest for Audio Nirvana. I am totally blown away by what I now have.. Two recent changes have transformed my already impressive system: 1) Installation of Von Schweikert Ultra 7 speakers and VSA Shockwave 12” subs tuned to totally cancel any standing waves in my asymmetrical room with lots of connected air space via the open design of my house and large volume with high ceilings., especially when my sliders are open onto the my, backyard which is waterfront; and 2) adding two more Westminster Lab REI amps to my existing Westminster suite of electronics (Quest V2 Preamp, Monologue Phono stage and power supply and two REI monobloc amps, connected with reams of Masterbuilt Ultra cabling and Angus Leung’s best cable offerings for bridging my now 4 REI amps and opening a new sonic environment I thought I understood after my 65 year quest for audio perfection, but am now realizing the sonic improvement is so vast on so many fronts, that I have to rethink what I believe is “audio nirvana”.

I will keep this short since my system is still improving every day and my cleaning lady is coming in 2 1/2 hours. Also my thinking is clearly rapidly evolving. With the REI bridging I gained a number of things that together have transformed my thoughts about my ultimate audio goals. First I think the VSA Ultra 7’s and their new tunable Shockwave woofers are simply the best speakers currently on the market regardless of price because they can use the Shockwaves environmental tuning that VSA is so famous for and used in my Ultra 7’s and my previous Ultra 9’s circuitry to cancel any standing waves making my sonic environment much like having my system on a large open field on a windless day.. Second, I like to listen a concert levels when I am deep into a listening session, except I doubt that there is a concert that would have the level of sound reproduction that I now call my Bucket List System. I have pushed many of my previous amps, both AB and Class A monoblocs and multi blocs, and typically find myself running about 3 db below where I want to be because I am at the maximum output I can tolerate without clipping and other distortions. Bridged my REI’s are 800 watts into 4 ohms, which gives me the power I have sought, although I did shut down three of four during a particularly loud listen session about an hour an a half ago. BTW they came back on in 15 seconds and sounded wonderful after about 5 minutes of high level stabilization.

So now the cleaning lady is coming in 2 hours and I do not feel like going to bed, so I will be short about what is blowing me away. The noise floor of this system is hands down the lowest I have ever heard or even realized was possible. Years ago when I listened to Jon Iverson's fabled force field speakers for 5 hours and I heard what I believed to be uncharted a sense of essentially no noise floor, it was amazing because all of the sonic components where so distinct and easily to define while being part of a very complex musical scenario. Amazing what I have now is that same low noise floor but with much more detailed signal and an amazing expansion of soundstage.

The net result is that this is not merely a massive sonic improvement, but rather a totally new sonic experience/environment. I cannot consider it a system any longer because it is so believable and it is literally everywhere in my house, even upstairs due to my open staircase. So the best thing about this is that the sound is so dramatically better than anything I have ever had and probably ever heard. So now I have a new totally emersive environment where I can listen to my favorite music and be moved by it like never before.

I realize most audiophiles will discount what I have written as the ranting of a high end audiophile, but if any of this makes sense to you and you are in the area (half way between NYC and Philly) come by to have a a jaw dropping experience.

I am very happy that you are enjoying your system. We put our soul and heart in designing and building our products, and it feels great when customers get what we are trying to do and have a big smile on their face.

 

[Holli82]

thanks in large part to this thread, @Mobiusman ‘s experience on his thread and getting to hear @Damon Von Schweikert and @gleeds discuss the adjustability and technology embedded in the Ultra 7’s via utube, I am expecting VS Ultra 7s in April. I’m beyond excited about it. Can’t wait to hear them in person in my room and look forward to working with such a hallowed company. Thanks again to everyone here.

You will NOT be disappointed. Congrats!

 

[Robifabs]

Hi, just a quick question: are we really on a 3 months lead time for cables at WML? Is this information confirmed?