What are the pros & cons of high-efficiency horns?

[manisandher]

I've noticed a lot of discussion of horns in other threads, and thought it might be good to start a thread devoted to their pros and cons. I'll share my thoughts shortly, meanwhile, feel free to contribute anything you feel might be useful.

Mani.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Sorry for short response - but here is a little starter on the negative side (I am pro horns so starting this way around):

>> Need to have quiet electronics or else you’ll be living with hum
>> Often physically large and take up lots of space
>> Often designers will compromise to the hybrid - this can work but often doesn’t with usually bass not integrated
>> Substrate of the horn can often be heard and impart a negative tonal character (plastic horns for example)
>> Large multi-way horns are most often very expensive indeed (E.g Cessaro)
>> Some horns have the dreaded cupped colouration
>> Some horns don’t image as well as other speakers with a forward projected sound that doesn’t layer

 

[Blue58]

Sorry for short response - but here is a little starter on the negative side (I am pro horns so starting this way around):

>> Need to have quiet electronics or else you’ll be living with hum
>> Often physically large and take up lots of space
>> Often designers will compromise to the hybrid - this can work but often doesn’t with usually bass not integrated
>> Substrate of the horn can often be heard and impart a negative tonal character (plastic horns for example)
>> Large multi-way horns are most often very expensive indeed (E.g Cessaro)
>> Some horns have the dreaded cupped colouration
>> Some horns don’t image as well as other speakers with a forward projected sound that doesn’t layer

Correct on all points and if I may add a few positive points

Micro detail that releases the emotion of a voice and differentiates between grief, longing, pain, anguish and fear better than any speaker I’ve heard.
Dynamics that rival live music.
Transport you to the actual event by removing the ‘reproduced’ artefact and taking you back in time.
Ability to be driven by almost any amplifier, even low wattage.

 

[bonzo75]

While the above responses I agree with, reading them won't help someone who has not heard a lot of horns, and one who has won't need to read them. Which is the main con of horns... They are tough to demo, mostly bespoke hence low resale, and each one is different from the other so you need to hear many to make sense of the above posts, which you won't need to read if you hear many

 

[manisandher]

For me, one of the main advantages of horns over all the other types of speaker I've owned and heard is the recreation of the transient attack of the leading edges of instruments (e.g. the pluck of a guitar string). Studies have shown that if you remove the first 100ms or so of the leading edge of an instrument, it's far more difficult to identify what the instrument is. Of course, 'regular' speakers don't remove leading edges completely, but they seem to have more difficulty in recreating these transients realistically. They tend to smooth over the 'raspiness' or texture of these leading edge transients, and hence never sound quite realistic to my ears. Only sitting in front of horns have I closed my eyes and been persuaded that I could be listening to the real thing.

Further thoughts later...

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

While the above responses I agree with, reading them won't help someone who has not heard a lot of horns, and one who has won't need to read them. Which is the main con of horns... They are tough to demo, mostly bespoke hence low resale, and each one is different from the other so you need to hear many to make sense of the above posts, which you won't need to read if you hear many

Even if this thread ends up being purely theoretical, I think it could prove useful... just to collect ideas on horns in one place, if nothing else.

Mani.

 

[microstrip]

For me, one of the main advantages of horns over all the other types of speaker I've owned and heard is the recreation of the transient attack of the leading edges of instruments (e.g. the pluck of a guitar string). Studies have shown that if you remove the first 100ms or so of the leading edge of an instrument, it's far more difficult to identify what the instrument is. Of course, 'regular' speakers don't remove leading edges completely, but they seem to have more difficulty in recreating these transients realistically. They tend to smooth over the 'raspiness' or texture of these leading edge transients, and hence never sound quite realistic to my ears. Only sitting in front of horns have I closed my eyes and been persuaded that I could be listening to the real thing.

Further thoughts later...

Mani.

The main characteristic of horns is its pattern of radiation, in general being more directive than "regular" box speakers.

This means the ratio between direct and reflected sound is higher in horns, resulting in more recording and less spaciousness.The stereo illusion needs controled wall reflections. Being an advantage or disadvantage is a question of listener preference.

I expect horns to be much more different between them than regular speakers - as shown by simulations by ray-tracing the reflections needed to create an higher efficiency create some coloration, no horn shape is perfect and the reflective properties of materials vary along the spectrum, each horn has typical sound pattern.

I found interesting that people who favor horn speakers seem to listen significantly louder than those having box speakers. However we only had a few data points in another thread, this subject deserves more research.

Sound engineers balance their recordings to be listened in box speakers. IMHO if you want to listen to the recording as expected by their creator you should use a speaker with a similar pattern of radiation.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Great idea for a thread Mani. I realised quickly that everyone’s early responses are interesting and that just after a few likes it was going to become something of a likefest for me. Perhaps the interest in discussing horns is also strong because the way they can allow music to operate on us is actually hard to then capture in words.

All of the above posts seem very much on point but with horns for me it is also about the way that each tends to have a clear sense of character of voice yet then still seem able to get you in the zone where then the music is simply more obvious than the character of the speaker. There’s much to say and learn from in this thread. Looking forward to everyone’s contributions for a better understanding to the mysterious way of the horn set.

 

[Blue58]

The main characteristic of horns is its pattern of radiation, in general being more directive than "regular" box speakers. .................
Sound engineers balance their recordings to be listened in box speakers. IMHO if you want to listen to the recording as expected by their creator you should use a speaker with a similar pattern of radiation.

I’d disagree with that final statement. Some studios have horns but many engineers balance using headphones as they know that is how the music will be listened to for most people. But that again doesn’t mean it’s the only way to listen to the creators intent.

 

[kodomo]

Sound engineers balance their recordings to be listened in box speakers. IMHO if you want to listen to the recording as expected by their creator you should use a speaker with a similar pattern of radiation.

Just to add, sound engineers at least good ones balance their recordings to be listened in a variety of different speakers not a specific type of speaker. They may use box speakers or they may not at their studio, that is also not very important if you have enough experience.

I have a friend who have worked extensively in the industry and even at the infamous real world studios. He had a boom box and he could even mix on that! It is because he has listened to his mixes on so many different systems, he knows how they will translate to other systems. Do not get me wrong. He had great monitors and a good room too and those were his main system not the boombox but they are not limited by their whatever reference monitors are

 

[kodomo]

As for the horns, they are very sensitive reproducers so to have a great sound is not very easy. Anything that goes wrong will be amplified as well. For me, horns are a definite preference. I played drums and piano and they both translate very well to horn reproduction. If you listen to big scale music I do not think there is actually much choice. The transients, the dynamics, ease of play even with big scale music on moderately high volumes... However to get these you need the room, the electronics and very fine adjustments on your horn system. Also, from my experience, unless your system is horn loaded down to at least 150hz, you loose the real benefits of the horn.

 

[Blackmorec]

I am a fan of horns, but only those that have been extremely well sorted, like Avantgarde

The problem with horns are many-fold (s’cuse the pun). To achieve hornloading in the bass requires a large construction which takes up huge amounts of space; consequently true horn loading does not usually extend into very low frequencies, where other driver loading tactics are used. Horns are extremely dynamic and fast, so the combination of drivers with horn and pressure loading (reflex or ports) presents a real challenge in terms of matching and musical integration.
Because horns are generally large, they require a lot of space. This means that different frequency drivers are often separated by considerable distance, resulting in sound that is not integrated in the near field and that requires a lot of room distance to integrate fully.
I have found that the easiest way to ensure good sound is to buy speakers to match a room.
The type of room required to successfully implement full range horns is pretty special....big enough to let the sound integrate, but not so huge as to impart its own highly identifiable sonic signature. Its actually much easier to get realistic sound in a small room so with horns the challenges are greater....however the rewards can be stunning when you get it right.

A friend of mine designed and build a home theatre based on Avantgarde.....Trios, Unos and 7 subwoofers. We watched a Tina Turner concert which was amazing. When the concert finished my very first thought was about the crowd on leaving! That’s how good it was.

 

[manisandher]

Wow. There have been some really great points raised already. I'm just going to pick a couple that resonated most strongly with me:

Some horns have the dreaded cupped colouration

I've heard this and can understand how it might put someone off horns for life. But the key here is that not all horns sound like this.

Often designers will compromise to the hybrid - this can work but often doesn’t with usually bass not integrated

Also, from my experience, unless your system is horn loaded down to at least 150hz, you loose the real benefits of the horn.

To achieve hornloading in the bass requires a large construction which takes up huge amounts of space; consequently true horn loading does not usually extend into very low frequencies, where other driver loading tactics are used. Horns are extremely dynamic and fast, so the combination of drivers with horn and pressure loading (reflex or ports) presents a real challenge in terms of matching and musical integration.

Integrating the mids and highs with the bottom end can be a nightmare IME. And it's not just about getting a flat FR, it's about matching the sensitivity as closely as possible to match 'speed'. Otherwise, you can have very 'fast' mids and highs and relatively 'sluggish' lows, which can sound wrong. (Mind you, the lows are just as 'sluggish' in non-horned speaker, but here, they're not contrasted with the much 'faster' mids and highs of horns.)

Great stuff. Keep your thoughts coming...

Mani.

 

[kodomo]

Well, I recently made changes to lower bass (bass below) of my system. I horn load down to 110hz and crossover to direct radiating bass solutions below. Otherwise I can not stay passive and time aligned without introducing more problems.

I have tried running multiple four TAD 1601b woofers in bass reflex cabinets and tru 20hz tapped horns for the last octave and a half. They were integrated successfully for. For me, it still was the weakest part of the system. I now have changed the bass to open baffle servo woofers in H frames and got better integration with the horns. I run 6 servo woofers in this configuration. My room is about 85m2.

Here I attach a measurement of SPL. SPL is not everything but it tells you a lot about integration and system balance. Red plot is the TAD bass reflex and tapped horn working together and yellow is the new servo based ob h frames. As you can see, servo is both more linear and is better integrated with midbass. Keep in mind this plot is in scales of 5db and is taken in room from my listening spot. If you have ever taken measurements you will understand what this means for a system as complicated and passive as this. The whole system is within -+2db for nearly all of the audible band. This is 4 way horns plus ob servo bass, a total of 5 way system that is time aligned as well.

 

[microstrip]

I’d disagree with that final statement. Some studios have horns but many engineers balance using headphones as they know that is how the music will be listened to for most people. But that again doesn’t mean it’s the only way to listen to the creators intent.

Surely not all of them, but most studios mix and balance using box speakers. Just go around interviews, studio descriptions and books on recording technique. Headphones are used for some specific purposes, but not for balance - F. Toole addresses the subject in his book.

Surely we can always find exceptions to general comments, but they are just that - exceptions. What is the proportion of top studios that have horn speakers?

And as far as I read on this forum horn lovers listen very little to recordings made to be listened on headphones - they mainly listen to vintage LPs made long before the headphone trend ...

 

[manisandher]

Here I attach a measurement of SPL.

Impressive.

Red plot is the TAD bass reflex and tapped horn working together and yellow is the new servo based ob h frames.

So the TAD bass reflex actually extended lower, but the OB servo woofers integrate and sound better? It's interesting that many designers, such as Bert at BD-Design, have gone the OB route. My previous BD-Design Orelos had 3 x 15" OB woofers per channel.

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

... they mainly listen to vintage LPs made long before the headphone trend ...

All of the horn owners I know personally do NOT fit into this generalisation. Actually, none of them use vinyl even. Just saying...

Mani.

 

[kodomo]

Impressive.



So the TAD bass reflex actually extended lower, but the OB servo woofers integrate and sound better? It's interesting that many designers, such as Bert at BD-Design, have gone the OB route. My previous BD-Design Orelos had 3 x 15" OB woofers per channel.

Mani.

No, TAD's did not extend lower, there was a tapped horn covering from 45hz to 18hz.

The OB servo systems propriety amp has switches for bass extension. One can choose 14, 20 or 28hz and also low, mid and high damping. if I choose low damping and 14hz they actually extend down to 14hz! I listened all the settings and combinations. In my room, with my system, my preference is 28hz extension on high damping and the plot reflects that setting. Also, the OB feels like it goes much deeper and has more impact. Two things I was not expecting.

 

[bonzo75]

All of the horn owners I know personally do NOT fit into this generalisation. Actually, none of them use vinyl even. Just saying...

Mani.

Micro's statements in less than a day

- Horn owners listen to vintage LPs
- Recording engineers record for sound to be played through cones, (possibly because these days they use pro PA speakers in studios to record mp3s)
- Bill and Brad said hifi needs to play loud at 120 db to impress

If anyone else thinks I am exaggerating, it's all there across two posts, one on this thread

Surely it should be added to observations and suggestions to not misquote people and not pass random facts with no basis

 

[spiritofmusic]

What's Blatant Forum.