What are the pros & cons of high-efficiency horns?
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Interesting reply's I like horns quite a bit! I find it interesting when the transient speed of horns is discussed there seems to be the impression that in most cases dynamic speakers cannot keep up. I have certainly been left with that impression at times
The problem with this is you use dynamic drivers to drive the horns. About the only thing the horn can add is directivity and some gain. The dynamics we hear are all from the driver not the horn.
So why the common belief about dynamics??
Rob
The problem with this is you use dynamic drivers to drive the horns. About the only thing the horn can add is directivity and some gain. The dynamics we hear are all from the driver not the horn.
So why the common belief about dynamics??
Rob
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^ Why the common belief? Experience with horns makes it so inherently obvious. Are you questioning whether the perceived dynamics are actually real or asking why horns are more dynamic?
'Experience with horns makes it so inherently obvious. Are you questioning whether the perceived dynamics are actually real or asking why horns are more dynamic?'
The dynamics are real the question as I see it is why? The bottom line is a horn cannot add dynamics. It may however help couple them to the listening space better. I am beginning to think that small excursion and large surface area are the key to the differences.
Rob
The dynamics are real the question as I see it is why? The bottom line is a horn cannot add dynamics. It may however help couple them to the listening space better. I am beginning to think that small excursion and large surface area are the key to the differences.
Rob
Nice question Rob, will be great to get a more in depth understanding of this myself. Am sure the technically minded horn and speaker specialists like Dave, Brad and Duke will give you a much more correct answer, I’ve always considered it related to a range of factors to do with the efficiency gains of the horn, the different designs of the different drivers used more often with horns including compression drivers and extra light weight dynamic drivers, the potential nature and characteristics of the low wattage amps operating in their first watts and simple crossovers and various impedance factors often adopted for the typical preferred horn drivers.
The aims of lower sensitivity dynamic speakers perhaps with more complex crossovers and the kinds of enclosures most box speakers are in would also maybe be contributing to their immediately less dynamic nature in comparison... tho Rob these are as I’ve said just layman notions of a happy horn owner so would definitely be good for you to tackle and engage in this at a much deeper knowledge level with the real experts here.
The aims of lower sensitivity dynamic speakers perhaps with more complex crossovers and the kinds of enclosures most box speakers are in would also maybe be contributing to their immediately less dynamic nature in comparison... tho Rob these are as I’ve said just layman notions of a happy horn owner so would definitely be good for you to tackle and engage in this at a much deeper knowledge level with the real experts here.
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If you want to address my points and get my answer please quote me directly as most others do in this forum and I will answer. Your style of misquoting, changing the sense and the framework of ideas only serves to avoid discussing important or fundamental aspects of this hobby and keep the debate superficial, most of the time centered on old dubious myths.
No one will change his preferences because of WBF, it would be nice if we could understand the why's of them.
Your one post is the one which mani quoted, to which I replied. Your other post I quoted directly on another thread. You can do the search. You are the one misquoting regularly. Your post on this thread in No. 15 blatantly making up stuff. The other one misquoting people is https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/page-63#post-585236
Nor I yours. Stop spreading false statements and misquoting like horn owners mainly listen to vintage LPs, and at 120 db.
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I’m not sure why you choose Wilson speakers then as off axis response or controlled wall reflections is quite poor compared to others?
The debate on what is the best pattern of reflection and dispersion and how it affects subjective speaker performance is is still open - I do not expect an universal agreement on it . We do not have detailed measurements of the dispersion of the XLF, and I choose them purely by subjective evaluation, although the fact that they have an easy impedance also helped.
You misunderstood the technical discussion on speaker compression and the 120 dB, sorry. And the smile on vintage LPs was there explicitly since the comment was posted.
BTW, we have moderators in this forum, we do not need your guidance on how to post in this forum.
Driver size alone is enough of a general predictor to know what radiation patterns will be in terms of wall interactions. Wilson uses driver that are not large, they radiate greatly in all directions, except the low crossed tweeter area (of the mid) and the high end of the tweeter. Crossover changes alone won't be enough to change that. They also have some diffraction for flavor.
But the crossovers and general polar response needs to be measured to check for consistency. Just because they radiate, doesn't mean the power response is even. There is no data on that, that I've seen. But my basic prediction would be that they should be closer to on-axis than off. And... that Keith is correct to say if these areas are your concern, Wilson isn't the go-to by any means. But subjectively the traits may or may not be all that valuable... there is no reason to dislike on-axis or reflections that it prudently provable anymore than the opposite is true. You don't get super 3D without reflections, for example. So I have to agree with Micro here, basically. People like different things, and for some horns will never do the things they want.
But the crossovers and general polar response needs to be measured to check for consistency. Just because they radiate, doesn't mean the power response is even. There is no data on that, that I've seen. But my basic prediction would be that they should be closer to on-axis than off. And... that Keith is correct to say if these areas are your concern, Wilson isn't the go-to by any means. But subjectively the traits may or may not be all that valuable... there is no reason to dislike on-axis or reflections that it prudently provable anymore than the opposite is true. You don't get super 3D without reflections, for example. So I have to agree with Micro here, basically. People like different things, and for some horns will never do the things they want.
You forgot significantly higher sensitivity (often 10db or more), which allows greater optimization options for the electronics...and often much easier load in addition to the higher sensitivity.
You also forgot that for a given db level the distortion will be much lower because distortion is basically tied to driver excursion and the high sensitivity drivers, particularly at normal listening levels will have very little excursion and also very low distortion. This could have a corrolary to the comment you make that horn listeners tend to listen louder...this might be due to the fact that there are less distortion cues that say "loud enough!" . Live, unamplified concerts are often louder than most people realize and this is largely due to the fact that there is no distortion being generated from the "sound system" (i.e. musicians). Horns can (but not always...horn resonances can cause issues in improper designs) give more realistic levels and peaks without the distortion that cues us that it is loud.
FWIW, I don't listen particularly loud...many people I know with box speakers listen at higher levels than I do and to me it sounds congested and distorted at those levels...they don't seem to mind. When I do crank up my horns, they retain the ease they had at lower levels to much higher levels than I hear with box speakers...even rather big ones. I heard this a lot at Munich where even really big box speakers sounded strained and struggling at the somewhat high levels shows require. A notable exception was the Goebel Divin Nobelese. The better horn systems handled the higher levels without strain or audible distortion.
It is this scaling without audible strain or compression (the two are linked, IMO, because the strain is non-linearity setting in...) . The problem is that once you get an 88db driver up to a level where it is pushing a couple of amps through the voice coil it cannot responded to a peak impulse the way it could when you are pushing mA through it. It is already quite warm and you are compressing it's headroom. However, a 98db driver will have mA going through at the same SPL and is therefore ready for the peak...therefore it will scale better and with less compression and distortion than the low sensitivity driver. Ironically, this distortion might actually make the speaker sound "louder" as that how the perception of distortion is usually perceived...even though the SPL is the same or even lower...I think this is why you can have very high levels live (unamplified) and people tolerate it quite fine.
Horns are even more dieverse because it is not just driver to driver variability but horn to horn variability and horn to driver interface. A wonderful driver can be ruined with a poor horn matching and vice versa.
The spaciousness is not only determined by the diespersion pattern...it also has to do with the fact that many horn systems are somewhat rolled off in the top octaves due to the nature of compression drivers and horns. I am now using some constant directivity horns in a DIY project and they require equalization to balance the top octave. Once that is somewhat linearized (truly flat is too bright) the sound is very open and spacious.
Interesting reply's I like horns quite a bit! I find it interesting when the transient speed of horns is discussed there seems to be the impression that in most cases dynamic speakers cannot keep up. I have certainly been left with that impression at times
The problem with this is you use dynamic drivers to drive the horns. About the only thing the horn can add is directivity and some gain. The dynamics we hear are all from the driver not the horn.
So why the common belief about dynamics??
Rob
First, while technically speaking a compression driver is a kind of dynamic driver (meaning it is a dome or ring with a voice coil) it is of a special breed that is designed to work specifically with a horn and has a compression chamber. This means it also has typically an enormous motor (usually much bigger than the driver itself...the reverse of a typical cone/dome). For example, the CP755Ti that I use in my new DIY system have a 3 inch titanium dome but the overall magnet structure is nearly 8 inches in diameter. This means you get something like 10db higher sensitivity even without the horn and with the horn maybe 20db higher sensitivity (my CP755Ti have 110db/watt in a horn vs the typical 88-93db dome).
This means two things: 1) the driver excursion for a given output level (let's say 90db) will be much less and therefore so will distortion and 2) The onset of thermal compression, which afflicts ALL drivers, is pushed away by about 20db. A 90db driver at 90db will be already passing a significant amount of current through the voice coil, which means it is already quite warm...now a transient comes and it heats up very rapidly and will not scale that peak correctly but will compress it. The 110db driver is passing a few mA at most and so even if the onset of compression for both drivers is the same based on the current passing through the drivers the 110db driver will still be able to respond with much less compression due to far less heating of the voice coil (because the peak will require less power as well to capture). This is also means it is scaled with far less distortion both linear and non-linear.
Don't underestimate the benefit of gain. 3db is double the power (but only in an uncompressed state as the SPL goes up it takes ever more power to get 3db more) and that means a lot of voice coil heating. 10db is 10x the power. So, if at 90db a 90db driver will take 1 watt but a 100db driver will need only 100mW and a 110db driver 1mW!
I have seen a number of conventional cone and dome drivers used with horns as well and this also helps them with dynamics and boosts their sensitivity by a few db (you cannot apply too much compression on them I think as they are not really designed to handle those pressures). It lowers their distortion at a given output level and allows them to scale dynamics better than without the horn...but they don't get the same output per watt that a compression driver gets. So getting 3-5db more sensitivity from a conventional driver actually still means a lot of advantage than without the horn.
So, it is not only a common belief, it is demonstrable from physics.
I have a theory that distortion, perceived as loudness, is being mistaken for dynamics. Think about how compression works in recordings...I bet most people would not enjoy a lot of recordings, at reasonable volume levels, without it. I have found many conventional box speakers to sound sound very loud only to find the SPL level is not so high afterall and that levels heard live (unamplified) are still often quite a bit higher. This was hammered home to me one time when I was recording (with much difficulty) my ex-girlfriend's practice session of Pagannini Caprices in my (not so large) apartment. The violin was a Strad and it was a sonic cannon! I had to set my recording levels very low just to capture the full dynamic range of that ONE violin because I didn't want to use a compressor or limiter. This was not ideal but she was so easily saturating the tape (I was using a mid-70s TEAC R2R) that it was mandatory to go very low with the gain... This was dynamics par excellence and was everything I could do just to catch it on tape...playback to get a realistic level that I heard in that room needs either a REALLY big panel speaker (like I had at the time) or horn system... or maybe one of the higher sensitivity big cone/dome speakers. Start adding instruments and, well, good luck.
Another example from the other way around was that I had a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MkII many many years ago. They were smooth, neutral balanced and pleasant but only sounded good in a very narrow volume range and only with commercial compressed recordings. At low volume they lost it and at higher volumes they started sounding compressed and congested so classical music sounded quite boring on them. At the time I couldn't understand why this should be the case when I had over 500 watts of amp on them (later I figured out that part of the problem was the compressed nature to the sound of such amps...another topic). Going to a 50 watt PP tube amp helped dynamics some but lost a lot of the bass. I was happy to move on from them. Now, I realize that the speakers were simply not doing well at low volumes due to their low responsiveness to input signal (this can be both electrical and mechanical) and at high volumes they were already audibly compressing and flattening dynamics...making them sound dreadfully boring. BUT for highly compressed pop/rock, which plays at a very steady volume level they sounded really good...as long as that steady level wasn't too low or wasn't too high.
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