What are the Rules of Thumb to Mate Tube Amps with High Efficiency Speakers for Maximum Musicality?

[caesar]

Most speakers today are low efficiency box speakers or stats/ planars. Tube amps, other than CAT, don't work on modern box speakers, as tube amps such as Audio Research and pretty much everything else out there, sounds very syrupy, and lacks the micro-dynamics, and has very flabby bass. I know many guys who go with tube amps on their magicos, wilsons, etc., like that, but for many, realism is missing with such compromises.

Enter solid state...Yet one need very high powered SS amps to completely grip them and submit these power-hungry box speakers to squeeze the micro-details of the music out of them. Otherwise, they sound like crap. Once the power is right, one can then pick the tonality - lean SS like Spectral and Soulutuion, Class A SS, or something in between. And even then one may get fatigue and a headache...

So when someone is dabbling with high-efficiency speakers, many of which may be driven with 20 watts or less, what are the rules of thumb in trying to mate the speaker to the amp? Is there anything one can look at to determine if it's a potential match, or is it purely trial and error?

A lower-powered SET may sound better than a higher-powered push pull design. Anyone understand why?

 

[asiufy]

Most speakers today are low efficiency box speakers or stats/ planars. Tube amps, other than CAT, don't work on modern box speakers, as tube amps such as Audio Research and pretty much everything else out there, sounds very syrupy, and lacks the micro-dynamics, and has very flabby bass. I know many guys who go with tube amps on their magicos, wilsons, etc., like that, but for many, realism is missing with such compromises.

Poor example. Modern Audio Research doesn't sound syrupy, doesn't lack for micro dynamics, and has better bass than a lot of SS I've heard. Pick another tube brand to make your disparaging generalizations.

 

[caesar]

Poor example. Modern Audio Research doesn't sound syrupy, doesn't lack for micro dynamics, and has better bass than a lot of SS I've heard. Pick another tube brand to make your disparaging generalizations.

I heard their top of the line amps at Axpona. They completely sucked playing led zeppelin and rush. If their $60K amps (or whatever the price is now) can't rock, their other ones can't either. Sorry

 

[asiufy]

Indeed, I didn't enjoy the Axpona set up I heard. It happens. But I live with them daily, in a proper room (not a hotel), and I can tell you they rock, as that's 90% of my listening preference.
And they're $30k for monos.

 

[Al M.]

Most speakers today are low efficiency box speakers or stats/ planars. Tube amps, other than CAT, don't work on modern box speakers,

Agree with you on CAT, but add Octave to the list of tube amps that can drive modern box speakers. I've heard my Octave RE 320 drive Magico Q3 and Magico M Project (the latter with three 10 inch woofers per speaker) with ease, body and tight bass. We played Deep Purple's "Child in Time" from "Live in Japan" full blast (really loud!) on the M Pro, and we had a blast. Incredible rhythmic drive too. And that's just a 130 W/ch stereo amp (just two KT 150 tubes/ channel!) not even the 220 W/ch Octave monoblocks. I use that 130 W/ch Octave on my 92 dB sensitive monitors where it is total overkill. These monitors can be driven by 10 W/ch amps.

 

[tima]

Tube amps, other than CAT, don't work on modern box speakers, as tube amps such as Audio Research and pretty much everything else out there, sounds very syrupy, and lacks the micro-dynamics, and has very flabby bass.

I heard their [ARC] top of the line amps at Axpona. They completely sucked playing led zeppelin and rush.

I realize it is meant to be controversial, but I would use neither that music nor show conditions to back up your opening statement. If you're going to condemn, be better at it.

 

[microstrip]

I heard their top of the line amps at Axpona. They completely sucked playing led zeppelin and rush. If their $60K amps (or whatever the price is now) can't rock, their other ones can't either. Sorry

No need to say sorry - it is just your opinion ... Some people create their opinions at show demos, others at successful listening sessions.

But "realistic" will be always a question of perspective. I listened to Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin being played by German Physiks Gaudi's amplified by three monster Krell amplifiers at realistic levels - it seemed I was 20 feet away from the stage at a stadium. Really impressive, an unique experience. I could say that compared to this session everything else sucked in terms of realism, using that argument just to denigrate my pet hates ...

 

[Al M.]

I realize it is meant to be controversial, but I would use neither that music

why not?

nor show conditions

Agreed. I continue to be dumbfounded as to why people draw any conclusions from bad sound at shows.

to back up your opening statement. If you're going to condemn, be better at it.

 

[caesar]

I realize it is meant to be controversial, but I would use neither that music nor show conditions to back up your opening statement. If you're going to condemn, be better at it.

Not sure which part is controversial, thinking ARC amps are complete sh!t or the SS vs. tubes part. Consider it a public service announcement for guys who assume a famous brand living off its legacy always sounds great, but may still have an open mind.

It doesn't matter whether it's a show or a perfect setup by the most anal audiophile out there, once one gets used to hearing powerful SS amplifiers on hard-to-drive speakers, the tube amps sound very syrupy. I know the sound I'm looking for well; no reason to waste time with further auditions. If I know it's a bull, I'm not milking it. And, yes, there are tube virtues, as I prefer SETs on high efficiency speakers, but if you can't rock, you suck, in my book.

The only exception to tube amps in my experience is CAT, because CAT's Stephens has been optimizing his amps to drive MBLs, one of the toughest to drive speakers on the planet. And he's the only one who has succeeded so far. Now, ARC has been moving toward CAT in terms of tone and texture in the last decade (since the old man died?), but I don't think they are getting that iron grip on the speaker, and their bass is not as good as CAT. I heard the arc 750 playing Sonus aida, a combo that should be optimized to sound great, and it sucked on rock.

As far as preference of tubes vs. SS on hard to drive speakers, I'm not the only one. Both Valin and Fremer have been using SS with Magicos and Wilsons for at least a decade despite small flirtations with arc and vtl.

Anyways, unfortunately, sounds like guys are throwing their favorite amps on their favorite speakers without any rational analysis of why the combo may or may not work. If anyone has any additional on this last thought, please chime in, as arguing about tastes is silly!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think you should go back to sleep and wake up in a better mood.

My ears, and the ears of reviewer friends whose ears I trust a lot more than my own, disagree strongly with your opinion on current generation ARC.

What is your evidence to support the assertion that: “ARC has been moving toward CAT in terms of tone and texture in the last decade”? I think there has been a huge change in sonic direction from ARC starting about three or four years ago, so I don’t know what consistent, decade-long path you are ascribing to ARC.

“. . . once one gets used to hearing powerful SS amplifiers on hard-to-drive speakers, the tube amps sound very syrupy.” This has not been my experience. If anything I have a sense that the solid-state amplifiers (e.g., Boulder, Soulution, Constellation) sound a touch dry and unnatural compared to high-power tube amplifiers.

Every single time I have heard high power solid-state amplifiers on insensitive speakers I have wondered how much more I would enjoy the sound with Aesthetix or Lamm hybrid amplifiers.

My favorite amplifier for driving MBL 101E Mk. IIs is Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse Monos. I am sure the Lamm hybrids would work wonderfully as well.

 

[microstrip]

Not sure which part is controversial, thinking ARC amps are complete sh!t or the SS vs. tubes part. Consider it a public service announcement for guys who assume a famous brand living off its legacy always sounds great, but may still have an open mind.

It doesn't matter whether it's a show or a perfect setup by the most anal audiophile out there, once one gets used to hearing powerful SS amplifiers on hard-to-drive speakers, the tube amps sound very syrupy. I know the sound I'm looking for well; no reason to waste time with further auditions. If I know it's a bull, I'm not milking it. And, yes, there are tube virtues, as I prefer SETs on high efficiency speakers, but if you can't rock, you suck, in my book.

The only exception to tube amps in my experience is CAT, because CAT's Stephens has been optimizing his amps to drive MBLs, one of the toughest to drive speakers on the planet. And he's the only one who has succeeded so far. Now, ARC has been moving toward CAT in terms of tone and texture in the last decade (since the old man died?), but I don't think they are getting that iron grip on the speaker, and their bass is not as good as CAT. I heard the arc 750 playing Sonus aida, a combo that should be optimized to sound great, and it sucked on rock.

As far as preference of tubes vs. SS on hard to drive speakers, I'm not the only one. Both Valin and Fremer have been using SS with Magicos and Wilsons for at least a decade despite small flirtations with arc and vtl.

Anyways, unfortunately, sounds like guys are throwing their favorite amps on their favorite speakers without any rational analysis of why the combo may or may not work. If anyone has any additional on this last thought, please chime in, as arguing about tastes is silly!

Wow, shows, Valin and Fremer ... Now your triangle is complete ...

You picked to wrong combo for rock - I listened several times to Sonus Faber Thesonusfaber (Fenice) with REF750s in a big room. Great, great sound for rock. I remember a member of WBF owned such system - or perhaps it was just the REF610T. As far as I remember he moved to SS because of reliability of tubes, not sound quality.

You do not present any rational analysis of anything, just systematically add controversy, insult and bitterness on this hobby, why do you expect that threads starting controversy can bring knowledge and enlightening to audio subjects? Do you expect the people you systematically misrepresent and insult to come here for a nice discussion?

 

[KeithR]

yet another silly Caesar thread, not sure why you guys are entertaining it.

There are probably half a dozen other tube amps I'd prefer to a CAT, too. Thankfully not all of us have hard to drive speakers.

 

[Al M.]

yet another silly Caesar thread, not sure why you guys are entertaining it.

Because it's entertaining.

 

[jeff1225]

I thoroughly enjoy Keith's modern Audio Research amp on his box speakers. I believe that VAC and VTL also make some great high power amps that work on box speakers quite well.

 

[Ron Resnick]

yet another silly Caesar thread, not sure why you guys are entertaining it.

There are probably half a dozen other tube amps I'd prefer to a CAT, too. Thankfully not all of us have hard to drive speakers.

+1

PS: I do find CAT amplifiers to sound at the solid-state-ish sonic end of the tube amp sound spectrum (ranging from syrupy and slow on one end to solid-state-ish on the other end).

 

[Al M.]

+1

PS: I do find CAT amplifiers to sound at the solid-state-ish sonic end of the tube amp sound spectrum (ranging from syrupy and slow on one end to solid-state-ish on the other end).

Seriously, Ron? I can't find in the CAT sound any of the electronic artifacts that I would associate with a solid-state-ish sound (not that there is no SS that is free of such artifacts either).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Seriously, Ron? I can't find in the CAT sound any of the electronic artifacts that I would associate with a solid-state-ish sound (not that there is no SS that is free of such artifacts either).

Solid-state-ish to me means neutral and linear and non-traditionally tube-y sounding. I am just trying to draw a spectrum of tube amplifier sound.

 

[Al M.]

Solid-state-ish to me means neutral and linear and non-traditionally tube-y sounding. I am just trying to draw a spectrum of tube amplifier sound.

Aah, yes, I agree with that.

 

[tima]

why not?
Agreed. I continue to be dumbfounded as to why people draw any conclusions from bad sound at shows.

Why wouldn't I use listening to Led Zeppelin or Rush to evaluate an amplifier?

Heaven forfend, I don't want to start a genre war. Let's just say I prefer to use acoustic music for equipment evaluation.

 

[tima]

Not sure which part is controversial, thinking ARC amps are complete sh!t or the SS vs. tubes part. Consider it a public service announcement for guys who assume a famous brand living off its legacy always sounds great, but may still have an open mind.

It doesn't matter whether it's a show or a perfect setup by the most anal audiophile out there, once one gets used to hearing powerful SS amplifiers on hard-to-drive speakers, the tube amps sound very syrupy. I know the sound I'm looking for well; no reason to waste time with further auditions. If I know it's a bull, I'm not milking it. And, yes, there are tube virtues, as I prefer SETs on high efficiency speakers, but if you can't rock, you suck, in my book.

The only exception to tube amps in my experience is CAT, because CAT's Stephens has been optimizing his amps to drive MBLs, one of the toughest to drive speakers on the planet. And he's the only one who has succeeded so far. Now, ARC has been moving toward CAT in terms of tone and texture in the last decade (since the old man died?), but I don't think they are getting that iron grip on the speaker, and their bass is not as good as CAT. I heard the arc 750 playing Sonus aida, a combo that should be optimized to sound great, and it sucked on rock.

As far as preference of tubes vs. SS on hard to drive speakers, I'm not the only one. Both Valin and Fremer have been using SS with Magicos and Wilsons for at least a decade despite small flirtations with arc and vtl.

Anyways, unfortunately, sounds like guys are throwing their favorite amps on their favorite speakers without any rational analysis of why the combo may or may not work. If anyone has any additional on this last thought, please chime in, as arguing about tastes is silly!

Cranking on about solid state vs tubes or expletively dismissing a certain brand seemed kinda like you wanted to rant about something but couldn't find an interesting topic. Your writing can be entertaining and I enjoy some of your posts, but it helps to sneak in a bit of genuine information every now and then. smilely

I'm still waiting for your message that connects to the thread title:
What are the Rules of Thumb to Mate Tube Amps with High Efficiency Speakers for Maximum Musicality?
which I did think was an interesting topic that had potential.