What do measurements say about SET’s

[DasguteOhr]

Radiale horner looks a lot like my PAP horn. I'm not very impressed by it so far. The coax is way better. I'm sure the Behma driver has a large impact. As well as where its crossed.

You know your speakers are build in bayern ,germany i wouldn't be surprised if the horn came from Heyder
I also hear with coax in Openbaffle but only a little bit bigger.

 

[Audiohertz2]

La Scalas are not very flat measuring regardless of where in the room you put them.

I owned La Scalas back in my college days and they play very loud and clean to about 50Hz. However, after many years of not hearing them and then a couple of years ago hearing them again, I can state that they are quite colored with all kinds of odd resonances and occasional shouts to them.

I have now experience with a number of more modern (and older) horns that don't have nearly the issues with coloration (some have virtually none) that the old Klipsch speakers have.

College days , those were first Gen models..! ..

 

[emoonie]

It looks intriguing but their website seems to offer no explanation of how it works. Its not all that clear what the photos are showing- some kind of a mechanism... If their intention was to portray how their 'mechanism' works, they need to hire a User Experience Analyst to vet their website, IMO.

There's very little information on user's experience that I could find. An earlier version's use was discovered through the Audio Exotics forum I peruse. Early adopted products unheard of at the time (by me) like Dalby, Wadax, Tripoint, Goebel, Arya. Anyway I don't even know if they have a distributor in the States. My interest was piqued further when I came across a member, thanks Willgolf, here who was going to use them for his Aries Cerat Aurora Speakers but decided against it. Not many possibilities on footers for 500 lb. speakers so I took the plunge successfully like I have on all the companies named above. Secondary prices before becoming well known or after interest wanes has been financially beneficial. I believe My Clarisys Auditoriums were the first pair offered used. Probably TMI, sorry

 

[Audiohertz2]

As I said, I have the Klipsch La Scala's, which are full range horns (most of the Altec's are not full-range horns, because they use a standard cone woofer, e.g. the Altec Voice of the Theater is not a full-range horn). To have a full-range horn, you need to have either no cone, or a folded horn like the Klipschorn or the La Scala. Pic of my La Scala below.

I use both electrostatics and horn loudspeakers in two different systems, and hear the obvious differences between them. Horns are more dynamic and go louder, but are much more colored. But, coloration is a personal thing, and many people are not obvious how colored horns or box loudspeakers are. Unless you listen to an electrostatic every day, you won't know what loudspeaker coloration is. It's like the difference between fresh orange juice and bottled orange juice. If you drink bottled orange juice, you have no idea what freshly squeezed orange juice tastes like.


View attachment 139982

These were very colored sounding , no way to listen to them after Quads ..!

 

[Atmasphere]

Yup, that’s why I got my La Scalas. Most horn systems are hideous looking. At least the La Scalas look like they fit in a living room. If I had to do
It over, I’d probably get the Klipschorn. But the La Scalas are my first and last horn.

After 40 years of listening to and owning hundreds of loudspeakers, I think I know what loudspeaker coloration is. I can write a check for any loudspeaker made today without batting an eyelid but I can’t stand the sound of almost all the major brands. Most are too colored. At least for me.

Coloration is a weird issue. I recall Alan Shaw who designed the Harbeth line of loudspeakers telling me that he was always amazed how people put up with the most colored loudspeakers. Listen to a voice in 99.99% of audiophile speakers and they sound like junk. Bright, scratchy, nasal, and the metallic tweeters squealing away on top. Ugh. Not for me. I have Alan Shaw’s masterpiece, the Harbeth Monitor 40.1, that’s about the only cone loudspeakers that get the voices right to a degree that doesn’t have me screaming to run out of the room (one reason I never go to shows and expose myself to audiophile horrors). For me, Quads and now Soundlabs are the end of the game. I’m not really interested in other horns or any other dynamic cone box speakers other than the Harbeth I own. Of course if someone has a genuine breakthrough I’m all ears. But putting more cones in a giant box is not a breakthrough. As Spencer Hughes of Spendor once said, big speaker have big problems.

I’d happily live with just my 50-year old Quad 57 if i had to downsize to one speaker. Or the 63s. As the saying goes, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. I’ve been around the hifi merrygoaround too many times.

I regard Sound Labs as one of the top speakers made.
They will not work in my room. The Classic Audio Loudspeakers do. They have horns and those can be used to minimize side wall reflections. Some years back CAL started using real beryllium diaphragms for the midrange compression drivers. This got rid of breakups (IIRC the first is at 35KHz) and the drive is field coil powered so its as fast as the Sound Labs, very smooth and detailed.
Klipsch are not in the same league, IMO, by any stretch.

 

[Kingrex]

You know your speakers are build in bayern ,germany i wouldn't be surprised if the horn came from Heyder
I also hear with coax in Openbaffle but only a little bit bigger.

I never got rid of the horn. One day when my life is less taxed I want to build a folded woofer horn that takes a 12" and blend the 2.

 

[Kingrex]

I thought Soundlab speakers were in Dr Vinyls room at Capital Audio. My friend Bob loved them and is calling Jose. He said most people were not impressed which confused him.

 

[Ampexed]

The latest version of the La Scala is smoother than previous versions. As measured by Stereophile (red trace, below) the high end could be interpreted as either being too hot or the low treble could be heard as recessed, depending on your perception and the particular music. The low end is erratic.


In the time domain, the La Scala is something of a mess, as is the Klipschorn. This will degrade imaging from as good as it otherwise could be if the drivers were time coherent.

As a point of reference, this is the step response of an Altec A-7 - it is basically a single coherent impulse, which is possible from it's natively time coherent design with the drivers vertically aligned (the HF horn can be moved independently to optimize this).

 

[Audiohertz2]

I regard Sound Labs as one of the top speakers made.
They will not work in my room. The Classic Audio Loudspeakers do. They have horns and those can be used to minimize side wall reflections. Some years back CAL started using real beryllium diaphragms for the midrange compression drivers. This got rid of breakups (IIRC the first is at 35KHz) and the drive is field coil powered so its as fast as the Sound Labs, very smooth and detailed.
Klipsch are not in the same league, IMO, by any stretch.

SL are very good speakers, but also very idiosyncratic, sounds very different from Quads and nothing like my all time favorite ESL’s , Acoustats..!

In this respects i do Prefer the sound of wired stator ESL’s ..!

 

[Audiohertz2]

The latest version of the La Scala is smoother than previous versions. As measured by Stereophile (red trace, below) the high end could be interpreted as either being too hot or the low treble could be heard as recessed, depending on your perception and the particular music. The low end is erratic.
View attachment 140024

In the time domain, the La Scala is something of a mess, as is the Klipschorn. This will degrade imaging from as good as it otherwise could be if the drivers were time coherent.
View attachment 140025
As a point of reference, this is the step response of an Altec A-7 - it is basically a single coherent impulse, which is possible from it's natively time coherent design with the drivers vertically aligned (the HF horn can be moved independently to optimize this).
View attachment 140026

I’m sure tons of resonance ripples in the Imp Z/phase to match that horrendous step response ..!

 

[Ampexed]

I’m sure tons of resonance ripples in the Imp Z/phase to match that horrendous step response ..!

Putting it mildly.


That said, the Altec A-7 low frequency horn cabinet isn't anything to write home about in it's native state! I've installed a lot of extra bracing and filled some spaces such as behind the LF horn with a mixture of sand and plaster to render it inert. I intend to do some more impedance plots at some point soon.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Wow , 4 ohms with -45deg phase angles i can hear the toobs farting from here



The cabinets are beautiful thou ..!

 

[Atmasphere]

SL are very good speakers, but also very idiosyncratic, sounds very different from Quads and nothing like my all time favorite ESL’s , Acoustats..!

In this respects i do Prefer the sound of wired stator ESL’s ..!

I've heard some Acoustats sound excellent! Sounds Labs do require a lot of the amps driving them and you have to get the settings right on the backpanel to really get them to work right.

Wow , 4 ohms with -45deg phase angles i can hear the toobs farting from here



The cabinets are beautiful thou ..!

Actually tubes seem to drive them fine without reliability problems. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the efficiency.

 

[Ampexed]

Wow , 4 ohms with -45deg phase angles i can hear the toobs farting from here



The cabinets are beautiful thou ..!

Complex loading issues is one reason I'm so bullish on active crossovers with a dedicated amplifier which suits each particular driver, which allows them to perform at their best.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I've heard some Acoustats sound excellent! Sounds Labs do require a lot of the amps driving them and you have to get the settings right on the backpanel to really get them to work right.


Actually tubes seem to drive them fine without reliability problems. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the efficiency.

Its may also be the main reason why many find them so colored and not to their liking. Looking at the impedance curve it would be very midrange centric on a tooby amp , even at 10k its requiring a dreadnought ..!

 

[morricab]

SL are very good speakers, but also very idiosyncratic, sounds very different from Quads and nothing like my all time favorite ESL’s , Acoustats..!

In this respects i do Prefer the sound of wired stator ESL’s ..!

Owned three pairs of Acostats…preferred them to my Apogees. Great design and 50 years later they still work like new.

 

[Atmasphere]

Its may also be the main reason why many find them so colored and not to their liking. Looking at the impedance curve it would be very midrange centric on a tooby amp , even at 10k its requiring a dreadnought ..!

At 10KHz a tube amp with feedback could probably manage that since there's not that much energy up there and it could tone down that midrange peak. But a zero feedback tube amp would be in trouble!

 

[Argonaut]

Its may also be the main reason why many find them so colored and not to their liking. Looking at the impedance curve it would be very midrange centric on a tooby amp , even at 10k its requiring a dreadnought ..!

I am somewhat curious as to exactly which SET topology amplifiers might you have owned and run within your home audio system ?

 

[Ampexed]

Suggest a design then, if you would please, with parts and values and I will solder it up.

I created an entirely passive low-level-line crossover and voicing filter just recently which works very well for the A7s. This link takes you to the thread on another forum where I discuss this.