What do measurements say about SET’s

[Ampexed]

Hmm... I hate to belabor this point, but you *are* hearing off-axis responses even if you sit at the exact center. It's the laws of physics at work. What you hear is the speaker and the room. You cannot eliminate the room, unless the speaker is designed to do so (e.g., an electrostatic does not radiate in the perpendicular to the main axis, and hence greatly reduces off-axis sounds, but moving coil speakers do not). I agree horns are less susceptible: I do have Kipsch La Scala, which are full range horns, and I see their off-axis response is better behaved. But it's there....and without seeing that, you can't know what's happening.

If you want to do a better measurement, try to create a room-averaged response along the lines of what John Aktinson of Stereophile has done for several decades with tens of thousands of loudspeakers reviewed in that magazine.

Quad ESL-63 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 2: Measurements (from June 1989, Vol.12 No.6) As I had dragged my motley collection of test equipment (footnote 1) over to Larry Archibald's listening room to carry out a set of measurements on the Mirage M1 loudspeaker he has reviewed elsewhere in this issue, I thought it might be a...

www.stereophile.com

Quad ESL-63, spatially averaged, 1/3-octave, in-room response in Larry Archibald listening room.

View attachment 139980

Do you have full range horns in a large room? Are you speaking from first hand experience with horns exactly like mine or is this simply internet conjecture? What a Quad speaker does is irrelevant. They are not full range horns horns.

You'll just to take my word for this since you aren't here, and I know what I'm doing. There's no gotcha to be had, sorry.

 

[godofwealth]

As I said, I have the Klipsch La Scala's, which are full range horns (most of the Altec's are not full-range horns, because they use a standard cone woofer, e.g. the Altec Voice of the Theater is not a full-range horn). To have a full-range horn, you need to have either no cone, or a folded horn like the Klipschorn or the La Scala. Pic of my La Scala below.

I use both electrostatics and horn loudspeakers in two different systems, and hear the obvious differences between them. Horns are more dynamic and go louder, but are much more colored. But, coloration is a personal thing, and many people are not obvious how colored horns or box loudspeakers are. Unless you listen to an electrostatic every day, you won't know what loudspeaker coloration is. It's like the difference between fresh orange juice and bottled orange juice. If you drink bottled orange juice, you have no idea what freshly squeezed orange juice tastes like.

 

[Ampexed]

As I said, I have the Klipsch La Scala's, which are full range horns (most of the Altec's are not full-range horns, because they use a standard cone woofer, e.g. the Altec Voice of the Theater is not a full-range horn). To have a full-range horn, you need to have either no cone, or a folded horn like the Klipschorn or the La Scala. Pic of my La Scala below.

I use both electrostatics and horn loudspeakers in two different systems, and hear the obvious differences between them. Horns are more dynamic and go louder, but are much more colored. But, coloration is a personal thing, and many people are not obvious how colored horns or box loudspeakers are. Unless you listen to an electrostatic every day, you won't know what loudspeaker coloration is. It's like the difference between fresh orange juice and bottled orange juice. If you drink bottled orange juice, you have no idea what freshly squeezed orange juice tastes like.


View attachment 139982

The Voice of the Theatre speakers which I have are fully horn loaded down to 125Hz.

How large is your room? Is it a living room or a dedicated space? I see your La Scalas are right up against the wall - get them away from boundaries and the floor if you expect less influence from the room.

Of course any speaker in a room will have the room influence the sound - but a full range horn will be far less influenced than a box speaker, or an electrostatic speaker. I don't see how you're trying to make an argument about that simple fact.

I posted the response of the HF horns in my system - that is an accurate representation. If there is some point you are trying to make, then post a listening position response of your La Scalas. I suspect that they will not be very flat because of their positioning.

 

[Kingrex]

No question the HF horns need to be well damped - in my case (picture below) I cover the entire surface with a thick application of Aquaplas which makes them completely inert. Bondo automotive putty also works well.

Running these Altec horns without adequate damping is a fool's errand.

View attachment 139829

I use modeling clay (car), it is very easy to shape and has a high level of cushioning. If necessary, it can be removed without leaving any residue if you sell the speaker later.View attachment 139831

Do these stay soft. Are they both easy to remove. Do they react with paints?
Thanks

 

[Ampexed]

Do these stay soft. Are they both easy to remove. Do they react with paints?
Thanks

Aquaplas, which is no longer available as far as I know, dries hard. Bondo also dries hard.

 

[Kingrex]

I want to try damping the metal frames on my open baffle speakers. But I want to easily remove the stuff. I have heard people say they over damp them and they go flat. A lot of the car damp materials are so adhesive, they would be very difficult to remove.

 

[audioblazer]

Kinda like Apogee by Clarysis... (which are my replacements for those)View attachment 139957

May I know what is clarisys outriggers seated on ?

 

[morricab]

The Voice of the Theatre speakers which I have are fully horn loaded down to 125Hz.

How large is your room? Is it a living room or a dedicated space? I see your La Scalas are right up against the wall - get them away from boundaries and the floor if you expect less influence from the room.

Of course any speaker in a room will have the room influence the sound - but a full range horn will be far less influenced than a box speaker, or an electrostatic speaker. I don't see how you're trying to make an argument about that simple fact.

I posted the response of the HF horns in my system - that is an accurate representation. If there is some point you are trying to make, then post a listening position response of your La Scalas. I suspect that they will not be very flat because of their positioning.

La Scalas are not very flat measuring regardless of where in the room you put them.

I owned La Scalas back in my college days and they play very loud and clean to about 50Hz. However, after many years of not hearing them and then a couple of years ago hearing them again, I can state that they are quite colored with all kinds of odd resonances and occasional shouts to them.

I have now experience with a number of more modern (and older) horns that don't have nearly the issues with coloration (some have virtually none) that the old Klipsch speakers have.

 

[morricab]

As I said, I have the Klipsch La Scala's, which are full range horns (most of the Altec's are not full-range horns, because they use a standard cone woofer, e.g. the Altec Voice of the Theater is not a full-range horn). To have a full-range horn, you need to have either no cone, or a folded horn like the Klipschorn or the La Scala. Pic of my La Scala below.

I use both electrostatics and horn loudspeakers in two different systems, and hear the obvious differences between them. Horns are more dynamic and go louder, but are much more colored. But, coloration is a personal thing, and many people are not obvious how colored horns or box loudspeakers are. Unless you listen to an electrostatic every day, you won't know what loudspeaker coloration is. It's like the difference between fresh orange juice and bottled orange juice. If you drink bottled orange juice, you have no idea what freshly squeezed orange juice tastes like.


View attachment 139982

La Scala is not the best representative of a horn speaker system. I owned them a long time ago and after hearing them again recently, was taken aback by how colored they sound. If you are going to compare electrostats to horns then you need to get a representative horn.

Also, I will state that the Quad 63 is NOT by any means the most transparent or interesting sounding electrostat.

I have owned the following electrostatic speakers: Audiostatic ES100, STAX ELS-F81, Acoustat 1+1, Acoustat Spectra 2200 and Acoustat Spectra 4400. A friend owns Quad 57s. The best electrostatic speakers for transparency I have heard are the STAX speakers. The best all-around were the Acoustats. The Audiostatics had impressive bass and transparency (just short of the STAX) but a severe "Venetian blind" effect in the highs that became too annoying....somehow the Acoustat 1+1 did not suffer from this so much. How did the Quad 57s stack up? Almost as transparent as the STAX, very coherent but midrange dominant and lacking in ultimate dynamics (like the STAX). Quad 63s to my ears, while being obviously time coherent are muffled and muddy sounding by comparison to these other stats. Would not recommend them as they are less transparent than a lot of modern box speakers.


After owning numerous electrostat and ribbon speakers it took me a long time to find horns that were free enough from coloration that It became a non-issue and could benefit from the increase in dynamics that I get from high sensitivity speakers over both conventional box speakers and planars. Planars are still my 2nd favorite technology class of speaker because they tend to get timbre, transparency, imaging and space as well as microdynamics (particularly electrostats) correct. What they still don't do as well is that "live" feeling that the best horns can produce.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Do these stay soft. Are they both easy to remove. Do they react with paints?
Thanks

The dough stays permanently elastic. You take a rolling pin and knead the dough like cake dough. Roll it out to a thickness of 3mm and then place the strips on the outside of the horn. also works for crossover components or baskets of bass drivers a high damping property.


.

 

[Ampexed]

La Scalas are not very flat measuring regardless of where in the room you put them.

I owned La Scalas back in my college days and they play very loud and clean to about 50Hz. However, after many years of not hearing them and then a couple of years ago hearing them again, I can state that they are quite colored with all kinds of odd resonances and occasional shouts to them.

I have now experience with a number of more modern (and older) horns that don't have nearly the issues with coloration (some have virtually none) that the old Klipsch speakers have.

Kind of what I figured about the response. I'm not a Klipsch fan - their voicing drives me up a wall, but you're right, they can go loud. Don't know whether it's the drivers or the crossover which is responsible for their stridency to my ears. My goal with the Altecs, has always been to make their tonality closer to a conventional speaker, yet keeping the dynamics and controlled dispersion of a horn. Horns are a challenge which is partly why I'm fascinated with them.

 

[Atmasphere]

I use both electrostatics and horn loudspeakers in two different systems, and hear the obvious differences between them. Horns are more dynamic and go louder, but are much more colored.

This statement is false since it is a generalization. Horns do not have to be colored at all (since so much depends on how well the horn and throat are designed, as well as what sort of driver is used), nor do ESLs have to lack any dynamics (since their MO is powered by a power supply, so no thermal compression) compared to horns.

I want to try damping the metal frames on my open baffle speakers. But I want to easily remove the stuff. I have heard people say they over damp them and they go flat. A lot of the car damp materials are so adhesive, they would be very difficult to remove.

It is literally impossible to overdamp something of vibration! It is very possible to screw things up and identify them as 'overdamped' though!

 

[Kingrex]

La Scalas are not very flat measuring regardless of where in the room you put them.

I owned La Scalas back in my college days and they play very loud and clean to about 50Hz. However, after many years of not hearing them and then a couple of years ago hearing them again, I can state that they are quite colored with all kinds of odd resonances and occasional shouts to them.

I have now experience with a number of more modern (and older) horns that don't have nearly the issues with coloration (some have virtually none) that the old Klipsch speakers have.

I heard La Scalas twice. In a store and in a friends room. Both times I was very aware I was listening to a horn. It was not for me.

 

[Kingrex]

The dough stays permanently elastic. You take a rolling pin and knead the dough like cake dough. Roll it out to a thickness of 3mm and then place the strips on the outside of the horn. also works for crossover components or baskets of bass drivers a high damping property.


.View attachment 140001View attachment 140002

Ahhh. Its a Butyl compound. Used similar to mount a gas tank in my old 1972 porsche 911S. I also see similar products calling it duct sealing.compound. I have a role of something similar I can try. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Atmasphere]

I heard La Scalas twice. In a store and in a friends room. Both times I was very aware I was listening to a horn. It was not for me.

I've always regarded the Klipsch stuff as entry level for horns.

When listening to a proper horn, there's no sense at all that's what is going on. I've had people tell me my horns present like ESLs.

When I finally got a horn system that really was low distortion, I found I naturally used more amplifier power since the system was so much more relaxed- IOW I was playing music at higher volumes with no sense of it being 'loud'.

 

[DasguteOhr]

FWIW Dept,: the TAD maple 500Hz horn has something going on with the throat that causes a bit of an artifact. John Wolff of Classic Audio Loudspeakers has this corrected with the result being smoother and easier to listen to.

Heyder, in germany build wonderful horns works great with tad and other driver my tip

Radiale R-Trak Hörner

Highend Manufaktur rund um Hornlautsprecher und Komponenten. Hersteller der Hölzhörner r-Trak - sTrak & eTrak. Sonderanfertigungen & Kleinserien.

www.lautsprechermanufaktur-heyder.de

 

[Kingrex]

Radiale horner looks a lot like my PAP horn. I'm not very impressed by it so far. The coax is way better. I'm sure the Behma driver has a large impact. As well as where its crossed.

 

[emoonie]

May I know what is clarisys outriggers seated on ?

Wellfloat Delta Extreme Isolation Bases with a max workload of 1000kg using four. The premise is akin to hanging your speakers from the ceiling. A link to their technical summary:

Technical Summary - WELLFLOAT English

wellfloat-global.com

 

[Atmasphere]

Wellfloat Delta Extreme Isolation Bases with a max workload of 1000kg using four. The premise is akin to hanging your speakers from the ceiling. A link to their technical summary:

Technical Summary - WELLFLOAT English

wellfloat-global.com

It looks intriguing but their website seems to offer no explanation of how it works. Its not all that clear what the photos are showing- some kind of a mechanism... If their intention was to portray how their 'mechanism' works, they need to hire a User Experience Analyst to vet their website, IMO.

 

[godofwealth]

I've always regarded the Klipsch stuff as entry level for horns.

When listening to a proper horn, there's no sense at all that's what is going on. I've had people tell me my horns present like ESLs.

When I finally got a horn system that really was low distortion, I found I naturally used more amplifier power since the system was so much more relaxed- IOW I was playing music at higher volumes with no sense of it being 'loud'.

Yup, that’s why I got my La Scalas. Most horn systems are hideous looking. At least the La Scalas look like they fit in a living room. If I had to do
It over, I’d probably get the Klipschorn. But the La Scalas are my first and last horn.

After 40 years of listening to and owning hundreds of loudspeakers, I think I know what loudspeaker coloration is. I can write a check for any loudspeaker made today without batting an eyelid but I can’t stand the sound of almost all the major brands. Most are too colored. At least for me.

Coloration is a weird issue. I recall Alan Shaw who designed the Harbeth line of loudspeakers telling me that he was always amazed how people put up with the most colored loudspeakers. Listen to a voice in 99.99% of audiophile speakers and they sound like junk. Bright, scratchy, nasal, and the metallic tweeters squealing away on top. Ugh. Not for me. I have Alan Shaw’s masterpiece, the Harbeth Monitor 40.1, that’s about the only cone loudspeakers that get the voices right to a degree that doesn’t have me screaming to run out of the room (one reason I never go to shows and expose myself to audiophile horrors). For me, Quads and now Soundlabs are the end of the game. I’m not really interested in other horns or any other dynamic cone box speakers other than the Harbeth I own. Of course if someone has a genuine breakthrough I’m all ears. But putting more cones in a giant box is not a breakthrough. As Spencer Hughes of Spendor once said, big speaker have big problems.

I’d happily live with just my 50-year old Quad 57 if i had to downsize to one speaker. Or the 63s. As the saying goes, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. I’ve been around the hifi merrygoaround too many times.