What do you use for vibration isolation?
- Thread starter Reid.Whitney
- Start date
The truth is it won't matter much what my answer is, will it ? OK, I am outta here !
I suppose your SWAG of an answer wouldn't really much matter. Even if you guessed correctly.
BTW, I think it's cute when a mfg'er designs a presumably fine component they inherently think they're instant experts in other areas like vibration mgmt or electrical mgmt. Talk about narcissistic?
Almost makes me wanna take a stab at building a world class TT using a needle, plate, springs, air-bladder, tire pump, variable speed motor, and a rubber band.
Hi Bruce,
I read your posts and liked your design approach so I did a search for your work. Was great to read Michael Fremer's very positive review of one of your early tts a while back.
It's always great to have people from industry contributing to WBF. Hope you'll stay and contribute more even if this particular thread has become quite territorial and at times a bit inflated and edging on toxic. Please don't have your view of this forum coloured by your experiences in this particular thread. It's a great place with plenty of diversity and experience across the board.
I read your posts and liked your design approach so I did a search for your work. Was great to read Michael Fremer's very positive review of one of your early tts a while back.
It's always great to have people from industry contributing to WBF. Hope you'll stay and contribute more even if this particular thread has become quite territorial and at times a bit inflated and edging on toxic. Please don't have your view of this forum coloured by your experiences in this particular thread. It's a great place with plenty of diversity and experience across the board.
The truth is it won't matter much what my answer is, will it ? OK, I am outta here !
I hope not - I am really curious to know about your device after seeing the description on your page.
Thanks for the kind words everyone. I think this is a great forum and plan to participate. Microstrip, I see you are in Portugal. I spent some time in Lisbon, Sintra and Porto. One of my fondest memories was of a very small restaurant in Lisbon that only served grilled sardines and potatoes. The whole place was filled with smoke from the grill. Fantastic! Also, I stayed at the Lawrences Hotel in Sintra which was a treat, and they provided plenty of Port. They also make a mean roast duck. Portugal is a great place!
Bruce
Bruce
I agree entirely.
Besides Townshend argues that floor-borne vibrations causes a lot of SQ damage to components and made solutions that are well-regarded.
Yes. I own five Townshend Seismic Sinks which I find to be very effective, though not as good as my three Vibraplanes. In fact this past weekend, an audio acquaintance came over to hear my system. He wanted to specifically hear my Pass electronics with his music from his source component, so as I don't have digital in my system, he brought over his CDP. We listened first to analog, and then to his CDs. I asked him to hit pause and help me to remove one of my sinks from under my preamp power supply so that we could put it under his CD player which was on the floor. The improvement was immediately obvious to both of us.
There are many effective solutions to vibration isolation. It is an issue in most systems, I'm sure, and people should find ways to address it.
What was interesting to me were his charts showing the correlations with tectonic and other ground-borne vibrations and the hours where perceived SQ changes.
Then I tried some rudimentary ball-and-cup arrangements for lateral motion isolation (even of speakers and the computer and DAC) and really liked the difference they made.
I started a thread where I congratulated members of this forum for taking seriously the topic of equipment isolation. I meant it. The discussion fomented here at WBF on the topic is among the most enlightened I've seen on any site on the internet.
Now that I've said that, anything further that I have to say on the topic I will welcome a reply, but if it comes in the form of the type of answer given by stehno I will simply ignore it. I really advise the other participants in this thread to do the same. It is obvious that some of his questions are very valid. His egotistical, negative, pedantic, pedagogic, demeaning, overbearing, provocational, confrontational, challenging, dismissive, insulting, mocking, petulant and derogatory attitude however, detracts totally from the valid questions that he occasionally raises. So, stehno, I have read what you have had to say; I will not answer or respond to anything that you have to add further to this thread. No matter what you have to say. Take it as read that my answers are never directed at you after this paragraph.
The issue of isolation of turntable systems is inherently vexed. Without the contribution of vibration, there is no vinyl playback. It is inherently tied to vibrational input. Therefore all and every aspect of application, material, method, solution, approach/implementation contribute to the end result. Couple that with the fact that each playback system/room/use of the same has its own 'voice', the issue of isolation in many cases comes down to a tailored approach to the individual matters that are contributing to what is impacting on the particular turntable's vibrational misbehaviour.
I personally think that there must be some basic principles which need to be adhered to in order to decrease the sensitivity that turntables appear to suffer regarding the vibrational environment in which they are used. I have been considering this topic for about 20 years now. Tried a few pathetic(in hindsight)diy solutions to the problem. Read as many reviews as I could of different techniques, approaches, methodologies, insights, sucesses/failures. I really feel that some of those manufacturers who have invested a great amount of time and effort and have produced some very sophisticated products are approaching the situation from angles that are insufficient to yield profound solutions to the many vexed inherent vibrational problems of vinyl replay.
If the noise level generated by the component, within the turntable, cannot be brought down below a given level due to the design choices decided at the blueprint stage of manufacture, then I take the stand that further attempts to isolate will never yield full benefit because the set design of the turntable is simply too compromised to begin with. So, before we look at the task of tackling the multitudinous challenges of decreasing the contribution of the induced environmental vibrational pollution, we need to be using a turntable which has an internal noise generational profile which falls below a reasonable level itself. I won't tie my statements to any particular implementation of turntable drive methodology. Whichever methodology is arrived at, it will hopefully emulate the approach meant to be followed by the dictum of "First Do No Harm". Harm in this instance being design choices which generate/propagate/increase/sustain internal vibration.
I am very close to the time of day that I wish to retire to bed. So I am unable to finish what I would like to muse upon here on this thread. I hope you all don't mind if I continue my contribution here in the next few days.
Now that I've said that, anything further that I have to say on the topic I will welcome a reply, but if it comes in the form of the type of answer given by stehno I will simply ignore it. I really advise the other participants in this thread to do the same. It is obvious that some of his questions are very valid. His egotistical, negative, pedantic, pedagogic, demeaning, overbearing, provocational, confrontational, challenging, dismissive, insulting, mocking, petulant and derogatory attitude however, detracts totally from the valid questions that he occasionally raises. So, stehno, I have read what you have had to say; I will not answer or respond to anything that you have to add further to this thread. No matter what you have to say. Take it as read that my answers are never directed at you after this paragraph.
The issue of isolation of turntable systems is inherently vexed. Without the contribution of vibration, there is no vinyl playback. It is inherently tied to vibrational input. Therefore all and every aspect of application, material, method, solution, approach/implementation contribute to the end result. Couple that with the fact that each playback system/room/use of the same has its own 'voice', the issue of isolation in many cases comes down to a tailored approach to the individual matters that are contributing to what is impacting on the particular turntable's vibrational misbehaviour.
I personally think that there must be some basic principles which need to be adhered to in order to decrease the sensitivity that turntables appear to suffer regarding the vibrational environment in which they are used. I have been considering this topic for about 20 years now. Tried a few pathetic(in hindsight)diy solutions to the problem. Read as many reviews as I could of different techniques, approaches, methodologies, insights, sucesses/failures. I really feel that some of those manufacturers who have invested a great amount of time and effort and have produced some very sophisticated products are approaching the situation from angles that are insufficient to yield profound solutions to the many vexed inherent vibrational problems of vinyl replay.
If the noise level generated by the component, within the turntable, cannot be brought down below a given level due to the design choices decided at the blueprint stage of manufacture, then I take the stand that further attempts to isolate will never yield full benefit because the set design of the turntable is simply too compromised to begin with. So, before we look at the task of tackling the multitudinous challenges of decreasing the contribution of the induced environmental vibrational pollution, we need to be using a turntable which has an internal noise generational profile which falls below a reasonable level itself. I won't tie my statements to any particular implementation of turntable drive methodology. Whichever methodology is arrived at, it will hopefully emulate the approach meant to be followed by the dictum of "First Do No Harm". Harm in this instance being design choices which generate/propagate/increase/sustain internal vibration.
I am very close to the time of day that I wish to retire to bed. So I am unable to finish what I would like to muse upon here on this thread. I hope you all don't mind if I continue my contribution here in the next few days.
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I said previously that I think there are some basic principles which I feel need to be followed in order to attain proper stable comprehensive isolation. The most specific in my mind is the need for the component's center of gravity(its balance point) to be taken into consideration at the design stage of the isolation method.
http://dev.physicslab.org/Document.aspx?doctype=3&filename=RotaryMotion_CenterMass.xml
"When you try to balance an object, if the point of support, the pivot point, is not at the center of gravity then the object will rotate either clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on which side has more torque. However, if the pivot point is on the same vertical line as the center of gravity, then the object, no matter what shape, is going to balance. It will be stable if the center of gravity lies below the pivot point. If the center of gravity is above the pivot point, even a slight disturbance will pull it off balance. In our case if you want to have a stable situation, the center of gravity of this assembly has to be below the pivot point."
http://dev.physicslab.org/Document.aspx?doctype=3&filename=RotaryMotion_CenterMass.xml
"When you try to balance an object, if the point of support, the pivot point, is not at the center of gravity then the object will rotate either clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on which side has more torque. However, if the pivot point is on the same vertical line as the center of gravity, then the object, no matter what shape, is going to balance. It will be stable if the center of gravity lies below the pivot point. If the center of gravity is above the pivot point, even a slight disturbance will pull it off balance. In our case if you want to have a stable situation, the center of gravity of this assembly has to be below the pivot point."
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Peter, since your SME turntable has a suspension system what is your theory as to why placing the turntable on the Vibraplane results in a sonic improvement?
Large stoves on sailing vessels are usually on gimbals to lesson the sideways swaying for the boiling pot of water. I've tried to cook on these stoves. They help matters, but I'd rather use them in the harbor than out at sea, that is, where the sea is calm. The rack is moving with vibrations traveling up from the floor. The Vibraplane calms these vibrations and provided a more stable platform on which to place the turntable.
The SME suspension system is very effective, but mostly at isolating the motor from the platter and armboard. Adding the Vibraplane improves things further. It lessons the vibrations reaching the platform on which the turntable sits (the steel ballast plate). Perhaps it addresses lower cycle vibrational energy that the SME's suspension towers don't fully isolate.
The TechDAS is also isolated, but many users choose to add additional isolation platforms under it.
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Thank you, Peter.
For a heavy, solid stand to support a turntable is there any consensus as to whether it is better for the feet of the stand to have spikes to mate to the floor or flat feet to mate to the floor?
For a heavy, solid stand to support a turntable is there any consensus as to whether it is better for the feet of the stand to have spikes to mate to the floor or flat feet to mate to the floor?
Do people still use today Mod Squad TipToes, with their "diode" mecanical vibration transfer notion, or have TipToes been replaced with newer, more advanced products today?
If not TipToes, what do people use as a threaded device at each corner of an isolation platform top to level the top on the table or stand or rack on which it rests?
Sorbothane leveling feet could also be used to level a top plate at the corners of the stand on which it rests, but I think there is no way to know in advance which would sound better -- solid feet like TipToes or soft feet like sorbothane.
Wavekinetics A10-U8s could also be placed at the corners of a turntable stand and function as the footers for an isolation platform placed on top of them. In this application the A10-U8s would not level the platform top on the stand, but would allow the top to sit stably on the stand, even if not perfectly level. The turntable could then be leveled on the platform top.
Has anyone compares solid metal footers to sorbothane footers to A10-U8s for isolation platforms for suspended turntables?
If not TipToes, what do people use as a threaded device at each corner of an isolation platform top to level the top on the table or stand or rack on which it rests?
Sorbothane leveling feet could also be used to level a top plate at the corners of the stand on which it rests, but I think there is no way to know in advance which would sound better -- solid feet like TipToes or soft feet like sorbothane.
Wavekinetics A10-U8s could also be placed at the corners of a turntable stand and function as the footers for an isolation platform placed on top of them. In this application the A10-U8s would not level the platform top on the stand, but would allow the top to sit stably on the stand, even if not perfectly level. The turntable could then be leveled on the platform top.
Has anyone compares solid metal footers to sorbothane footers to A10-U8s for isolation platforms for suspended turntables?
Two days ago, I placed a minus K BM-8 (a passive isolation device) under my SME 20/2 TT. The result is indeed so spellbinding that I want to replay every record in my library!
A division of Starrett fabricates black granite plates to extremely precise levels of flatness:
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/m...sion-granite/standard-products/superior-black
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/m...sion-granite/standard-products/superior-black
So far, I've used rubber feet below my wooden stands, as well as ball-and-cup arrangements below my monitor speakers (between the stand and their lower surface with a bamboo board in between), under my DAC (currently I am running experiments so my DAC isn't isolated from vibrations), under one HDD, under the iMac.
This isolates from lateral motions.
This isolates from lateral motions.
IsoAcoustics has come out with stand-alone feet, I've tried their stands in many applications and they always make a nice improvement in clarity and definition while keeping bass from resonating your house nearly as much. Of course there's still vibration transferred from the driver to the house via the air, but the stands really reduce sympathetic resonances from windows, framed artwork, lighting fixtures, etc. The new feet are much more attractive vs the stands and make it easier to retrofit them to various speakers.
http://www.isoacoustics.com/?page_id=1130
http://www.isoacoustics.com/?page_id=1130
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