What do you use for vibration isolation?

[DaveyF]

I just substituted some Grand Prix Apex footers under my Monaco amp stand...replaced the stock steel spikes. The spikes were able to pierce the carpet and impact the slab below. The Apex feet do not do this, yet they are still an able stabilizer and isolator. I haven't listened too much to say that they are a big improvement, but they certainly are no worse.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I acknowledge completely that there is no objectively "best" vibration isolation table top. What works well under one turntable in one system in one room may not work well in another situation. Every combination of turntable, room and preference is different.

There is no way to divine in advance, based on theory, what will actually sound best in one's system.

It would be great if I could have three or four different table tops of different materials and properties and weights to compare A versus B versus C in situ but that is not practical.

So I am narrowing the choices down to three different options by one company which will fabricate a custom table top.

This company specializes in steel and lead and every combination thereof. I am considering:

1) 3/8 steel (it can be cold rolled or hot rolled -- is one better than the other for vibration damping?) on the top and on the bottom with 1" of pure lead (sealed in urethane) and laminated together and then machined laboratory-grade flat as a complete sandwich (340 pounds)

2) Solid steel, 1" or 1.5" thick

3) A sandwich of multiple layers of 1/4" or 3/8" steel or lead or both in any combination

Are there any vibration engineering experts here who could tell me the theoretical pros and cons of each of these designs?

 

[theophile]

Ron,

You could investigate materials which have inherent self-damping. An excellent(but pricey one) is Panzerholz.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...ials which have inherent self-damping&f=false

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike L suggested that too. I researched fabricators but I could not find anyone who will make what I am looking for.

 

[theophile]

Mikel is a smart man. One not afraid to swim against the prevailing tide of Audiophile 'wisdom' when he gets a sniff of something interesting. I respect his opinion. No-one need respect mine.

The key to success in hi-fi audio is: Investigate. Don't take anyone's word for anything. Keep and open mind and do your homework.

 

[LL21]

I acknowledge completely that there is no objectively "best" vibration isolation table top. What works well under one turntable in one system in one room may not work well in another situation. Every combination of turntable, room and preference is different.

There is no way to divine in advance, based on theory, what will actually sound best in one's system.

It would be great if I could have three or four different table tops of different materials and properties and weights to compare A versus B versus C in situ but that is not practical.

So I am narrowing the choices down to three different options by one company which will fabricate a custom table top.

This company specializes in steel and lead and every combination thereof. I am considering:

1) 3/8 steel (it can be cold rolled or hot rolled -- is one better than the other for vibration damping?) on the top and on the bottom with 1" of pure lead (sealed in urethane) and laminated together and then machined laboratory-grade flat as a complete sandwich (340 pounds)

2) Solid steel, 1" or 1.5" thick

3) A sandwich of multiple layers of 1/4" or 3/8" steel or lead or both in any combination

Are there any vibration engineering experts here who could tell me the theoretical pros and cons of each of these designs?

hey Ron,

Fascinating project! I find with really great technical advisors, this can be money very well spent. No marketing budget, allocation of significant overhead...just money spent on materials labor and margin for a specific project. And if the advisor makes his money doing larger commercial projects, then there can be often a lot less 'margin' padded in because it is audiophile. (kinda like the cost of flowers for a party...vs flowers for a wedding or a baby shower. Somehow the flowers for the latter always seem to cost 3x.)

One area i would look at is HRS and Von Schweikert...both use multiple layers of DIFFERENT materials in order to create isolation/vibration 'free' walls, structures. I do like HRS a lot, and i think Bergmann used to sell their top TT with an HRS designed table? Aluminum, granite, steel and elastomer material combined in layers.

In my own personal experiments with no manufacturing capabilities, i have found that steel/granite alone are not for me. I like some level of elastomer with it...but I like the steel/aluminum with elastomer...plus a LOT of sheer, dead weight.

As a result, i use a fair amount of HRS...and I also have combined all of my Stillpoints Ultra 5 with an HRS Nimbus Coupler (elastomer encased in aluminum) on top, and all of my Artesania dampers (some form of elastomer-like surface with steel) with a TON of sheer weight (200lbs) in the form of solid brass or steel on top. Interestingly, since both of these 'homemade combinations', I have noted that both companies have started selling properly manufactured versions that seem similar: Artesania now sells a damping plate in Asia with what appears to be 10kg of dead weight on top, and HRS now sells an aluminum cylinder with spike...that has an elastomer on top.

I am no techie, but just some food for thought as you design your custom table.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 3) A sandwich of multiple layers of 1/4" or 3/8" steel or lead or both in any combination

Are there any vibration engineering experts here who could tell me the theoretical pros and cons of each of these designs?

I love this idea and I am considering it for another project - the lead would damp the steel and add mass. However bonding the lead to steel seems a critical part of the project. Although I was told that epoxy glues can be used for it I could not find any specific brand to be used with lead.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why do you like the idea of thin layers of lead and steel rather than a thick slab of lead between two sheets of steel?

and how do we know for sure that lead is a good vibration absorber?

 

[microstrip]

Why do you like the idea of thin layers of lead and steel rather than a thick slab of lead between two sheets of steel?

and how do we know for sure that lead is a good vibration absorber?

Mainly being pragmatic - I can not locate anyone working with thick slabs of lead! I work with lead blocks and lead sheet for radiation protection and do not find differences in sonority between a thin or very thick slab of lead - both are inert - unlike steel. Probably my approach will be something like 1/8 to 1/4" lead and 1/2 to 3/8" steel.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So whom are you going to have fabricate this multi-layer sandwich for you?

 

[ddk]

Why do you like the idea of thin layers of lead and steel rather than a thick slab of lead between two sheets of steel?

and how do we know for sure that lead is a good vibration absorber?

Ron, what we discussed with lead or steel is mass loading the rack to control vibration nothing to do with vibration absorption qualities of these materials. There's also Resonance control that one needs to think about, what and how you introduce other materials is based on the equipment sitting on this steel shelf. There's absolutely no reason to introduce layer or layers of lead into a this slab of steel, what is it supposed to accomplish?

david

 

[microstrip]

Ron, what we discussed with lead or steel is mass loading the rack to control vibration nothing to do with vibration absorption qualities of these materials. There's also Resonance control that one needs to think about, what and how you introduce other materials is based on the equipment sitting on this steel shelf. There's absolutely no reason to introduce layer or layers of lead into a this slab of steel, what is it supposed to accomplish?

david

Good points. My multilayer dual material approach is mostly due to the fact that I can can have a local firm to cut layers up to a maximum thickness of around 3/8" and I want to have some vibration absorption in the table, as I am going to put it on Fabreeka pneumatic insulators - my turntables do not have any suspension. Remember that lead sheet makes an ideal sound barrier, it has excellent mechanical vibration absorption qualities.

My approach is intuitive, I am not an expert in vibration control!

 

[Ron Resnick]

David, at 340 pounds I think my Frankenstein platform also satisfies a mass-loading objective.

If, in fact, lead absorbs vibrations why not also have the table top dampen vibrations traveling through the table top from either direction?

 

[ddk]

David, at 340 pounds I think my Frankenstein platform also satisfies a mass-loading objective.

If, in fact, lead absorbs vibrations why not also have the table top dampen vibrations traveling through the table top from either direction?

Your rack isn't the problem it's the top shelf that we wanted to improve.

Lead doesn't absorb vibration it's used for mass damping like steel. Because of it's density lead has more mass than steel so a sheet, bar or lead shot will weigh more but it doesn't matter when you're talking solid 3/4" steel plate.

david

 

[ddk]

Good points. My multilayer dual material approach is mostly due to the fact that I can can have a local firm to cut layers up to a maximum thickness of around 3/8" and I want to have some vibration absorption in the table, as I am going to put it on Fabreeka pneumatic insulators - my turntables do not have any suspension. Remember that lead sheet makes an ideal sound barrier, it has excellent mechanical vibration absorption qualities.

My approach is intuitive, I am not an expert in vibration control!

I like the the Fabreeka insulators, I use thick o-rings under the steel shelves. 1/2" - 3/4" is pretty inert you can use it with or without the lead sheets.

david

 

[LL21]

Your rack isn't the problem it's the top shelf that we wanted to improve.

Lead doesn't absorb vibration it's used for mass damping like steel. Because of it's density lead has more mass than steel so a sheet, bar or lead shot will weigh more but it doesn't matter when you're talking solid 3/4" steel plate.

david

Yes, in our case, we tried to find lead due to its significantly greater density (more compact, same weight) but no one will sell it here so we used brass which is the denser of the commonly available metals. It rings like any other metal, but on top of elastomers from HRS, or damping plates from Artesania, the ringing stops, and otherwise it works incredibly well to mass dampen amps, source equipment and especially the Velodyne...keeping away a good amount of vibration.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hello Happy New Year,

Good points. My multilayer dual material approach is mostly due to the fact that I can can have a local firm to cut layers up to a maximum thickness of around 3/8" and I want to have some vibration absorption in the table, as I am going to put it on Fabreeka pneumatic insulators - my turntables do not have any suspension. Remember that lead sheet makes an ideal sound barrier, it has excellent mechanical vibration absorption qualities.

My approach is intuitive, I am not an expert in vibration control!

Three Feets from Fabreeka you need min. 95kg for 3-4 Hz Isolation...
The Best Way is a Schiefer Slate no Metal or Layers of this it sounds no good.
I have a 2 inch thick Slate 70cm x 55cm x 5,5cm weight 58kg.
My Feets from here..you need 80% from Mass Loading for a good Setup

http://cplusw.de/de/din_luftfeder.php
http://cplusw.de/zoom.php?datei=resonanz_luftfeder_gr.jpg

 

[Ultrafast69]

After I redid my power, the gain was beyond words, great for everything but the turntable. I was now picking up vibration causing feedback at normal listening settings that were now louder.

In my case the turntable sits within full built in cherry cabinets resting on concrete. I originally had purchased a HRS M3X platform sized for this location ahead of the turn table, but went a different route so ended up using the HRS platform for the the phono and scored an Adona shelf that sat on Stillpoints Ultra 6.

Franc Kuzma recommended using rubber pads that would decouple vibration between the shelf and turntable so I used three HRS Nimbus pucks, problem solved. The Stillpoints despite their claim channeled energy up into the table was my guess.

Hope this helps someone ever in this situation.

 

[LL21]

After I redid my power, the gain was beyond words, great for everything but the turntable. I was now picking up vibration causing feedback at normal listening settings that were now louder.

In my case the turntable sits within full built in cherry cabinets resting on concrete. I originally had purchased a HRS M3X platform sized for this location ahead of the turn table, but went a different route so ended up using the HRS platform for the the phono and scored an Adona shelf that sat on Stillpoints Ultra 6.

Franc Kuzma recommended using rubber pads that would decouple vibration between the shelf and turntable so I used three HRS Nimbus pucks, problem solved. The Stillpoints despite their claim channeled energy up into the table was my guess.

Hope this helps someone ever in this situation.

Great stuff...these details and meticulous set up are incredibly important in my own experience. BTW, in all cases other than Gryphon amp and Wilson XLF speakers, i always use BOTH the HRS Nimbus Couplers ON TOP of the Stillpoints...and THEN put the shelf on top. I find the tonal qualities and particularly the depth/density in the mids are beautifully rendered with the HRS in situ...while the clarity of delineation of the Stillpoints is also preserved. If you have the Stillpoints lying around, and wish to experiment...I would be curious to know what happens. That said, in your case, it is clear something was going UP into the Stillpoints or something like that...which we never had in our setup. YMMV.

 

[BruceD]

I guess there is one pooper at every party--so I'll be it--
Here goes--I've had Sand filled bases from a US company-the name escapes me,Mission Isoplats,AQ Sorbothane,Tiptoes,Goldmund Cones,Harmonix Elephant feet and others from the range, Marigos,Stillpoints,Shun Mooks/etc/etc.

All of the above have since passed on--all did something one way or another -some good some not so--anyway the most pleasing sonics I have now is nix under the components which just sit -yes on their own feet
on 4" Big Mapleshade Blocks brass footed thru the carpet to the poured concrete below.
Believe it or not--best sound this bod has searched for over the years.

Obviously though the KISS principle works here! -YVMV

BruceD