What do you use for vibration isolation?

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
3. If vibrations cause the distortions, and distortions are the main culprit to poor sound, as was suggested in another thread, then why is vibration control not the most important, or one of the top, issues that is being addressed by audiophiles and audio science to achieve better sound?

Isn't vibration control a tweak, and simply less important sonically than the items higher up our priority lists?

 

[PeterA]

Isn't vibration control a tweak, and simply less important sonically than the items higher up our priority lists?

Yes, that seems to be the case. I'm just wondering why it is not of higher priority if vibrations are the main cause of distortions in our systems and vibration control seems to be the solution, as stehno, asserted.

Personally, I happen to think that proper set up is more important, followed by rooms, speaker choice, etc. But vibration control is certainly important and I have attempted to address it in one of the many possible ways that are available to us.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, that seems to be the case. I'm just wondering why it is not of higher priority if vibrations are the main cause of distortions in our systems and vibration control seems to be the solution, as stehno, asserted.

Personally, I happen to think that proper set up is more important, followed by rooms, speaker choice, etc. But vibration control is certainly important and I have attempted to address it in one of the many possible ways that are available to us.

I think that as we go down the road to lower distortion in our systems, at every point where we have done the 'other' things we stop and consider resonance control as a way to tune and optimize the whole picture. it's a final thing since it requires the other stuff to be done and adjusted to be able treat their particular resonances. so it's gear -> set-up -> resonance control....typically. then as you go to another gear upgrade and get it set-up then you have to revisit resonance control.

I know when I added my big boy MM7's I had to re-think my approaches to resonance control as they changed the game.

 

[user510]

What I'm using currently,

Turntable: SP10 mkII in what I call a 'mule' plinth that follows the ideals of a light-rigid approach, I hope.
Tonearm: an old Graham 2.2
Cartridge: Shelter 501-II. Lately I'm using a modified Denon Dl-103R with Uwe body and SS ruby/Fl cantilever/stylus.
Stillpoint cones X4.
Neuance platform.



This is not exactly elegant in appearance, but it does manage to isolate the turntable on top of the pile from floor borne vibrations. Seismic stuff. The movement of a suspended wood beam floor. The Neuance platform directly beneath the still-point cones of the SP10 mkII and its plinth, is there to help manage vibrations being generated by the turntable itself. Or, at least, that is the intent.

does it help?
Yes. Just a tad quieter backgrounds. Hearing (seeing) just a tad deeper into the record groove. Just a tad cleaner, crisper, more articulate playback. yup. It helps. It is not just taking up space, or compensating for footfall on a bouncy floor. Having had the Minus-K for a few years now, I know I don't want to be without it.

Further details:
The Minus-K in the photo is a model BM-150. Its functional load range is from 90 lbs to 150 lbs. this size was chosen when I had been using a TD124 with a massive slate plinth. With the SP10 I could use a much smaller model of Minus-K, however I have this one. Besides, with the BM-150, I can always add ballast in order to meet the load requirements of using lighter record players, like the one in the photo. In this instance I have two 2-inch thick plates of slate between the Minus-K and the Neuance platform. This configuration does result in less than 1 hz response in all 6 ways of freedom. Although I tend to view this as vertical and horizontal motion. And the horizontal tends to pivot about a central axis. To observe this platform in action is rather impressive when first witnessed. As in, it responds so slowly to seismic disturbances.

I'd also make note that I have observed, while living on a suspended floor (3rd story) that foot fall generated floor motion tends to occur as much in the horizontal as vertical. Imagine a full sized adult walking across the wood beam flooring, sending ripples of motion through the lighter floor surfaces, not unlike a ripple in a pond. This is why I consider it of greater importance to allow isolation in the horizontal.

Btw other seismic disturbances can come from the load bearing framework (studs) holding up the walls. This sets the floor into a different response than from footfall.

As to air-borne isolation, I don't know if the Minus-K, or any other similar isolation device will help alleviate some of the affects of acoustic feedback upon a stylus-groove interface. For that matter, even a spring suspension turntable which is intentionally designed, or at least stated to be so, can only partially alleviate the effects of acoustic feedback. (airborne sound waves bouncing directly onto the tonearm at the stylus/groove interface). fortunately, I have perceived no overt problems with such.

Other notes:
The Minus-K was offered to me by the manufacturer as a 'review sample'. I have been very happy to accept and review this. Still reviewing on a daily basis.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

-Steve

 

[Ron Resnick]

Peter, I agree on all points. I just do not know if vibrations are the main cause of distortions in our systems. It is not like our systems are close to perfect otherwise. For example, our systems do not have perfectly linear frequency responses to begin with. We generally consider +/- 3 dB from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz to be good. But that still implies a 6 dB of "swing" somewhere in the frequency response graph. And 6 dB represents a doubling of sound pressure.

So, at the moment, I think vibration tweaks are really the final tweak at the margin (as Mike suggests, after everything else has been optimized). I think there are bigger sonic fish to fry before one gets to vibration tweaks.

It is a lot easier and cheaper to play with vibration tweaks than to replace components, so maybe we want to hope that vibration tweaks can make big, rather than marginal, differences.

For example, and I have no idea if there is any way to measure this, doesn't it seem like getting a turntable out of the line of fire of speakers by locating the turntable in a different room would result in a greater reduction in vibration imparted to the turntable than would changing the material of the feet on which the turntable sits?

 

[stehno]

I've tried different approaches to vibration control.... and I think "grounding" vibration is a load of BS after the experiments I have done and I've only seen this solution encouraged by folks who are seriously misguided. That's not to say you can't get results you may enjoy from all sorts of different methods but if you want to actually reduce microvibration then you need an isolation/decoupling system. Many people agree that it is possible to overdamp audio components and make them sound dull and lifeless, and I agree with this as I have done it myself, and it's the result of too much and too low a durometer of viscoelastic material providing the decoupling. So I think the case is we want some vibration control but only what a fairly hard durometer viscoelestic material will provide, possibly in a CLD platform. Like our rooms, we don't want them to be too damp or too live for the speakers we have chosen.

IME vibration in the floor and structures sitting on the floor (including your house) is the biggest problem, and suspended wood floors vs concrete pads both have their issues. Devices that decouple your audio gear from the floor generally result in the biggest improvements, followed by individual component isolation. Spiking anything to the floor results in an excellent coupling mechanism for vibration to make it from your speakers into whatever is spiked, including the speakers themselves. IMO, this is the worst way to deal with vibration and the results sound horrible. Further, the energy from the speakers/subs tends to vibrate your entire house when playing music at higher volume, making different things in your house rattle and vibrate.

Load of BS, seriously misguided? Come let us reason together, Dave.

Let’s start off with a simple analogy that I’ve used before:

Assume you're stopped at a traffic light. Suddenly your entire car starts pulsating severely by some kid's subwoofer in the car directly behind you. You're stomach's in knots and you're thinking maybe you'd get some relief if you blew chunks. You look in your rearview mirror to see the kid in the car behind but it too is pulsating so severely you can't even tell if it's a boy or girl. Everything in the mirror is just a pulsating blur. Now your car is resting on air-filled radial footers as is the car behind you pumping out the subterranean bass with a 2000 wpc amp.

From whence are the vibrations entering your car, the pavement or the air?

If your response is the pavement, I’ll ask one more question using that same analogy.

Which would cause your rearview mirror to vibrate more, that subwoofer in the car behind you or a city worker jackhammering the pavement 5 ft. from your car? If your answer is the jackhammer, then there’s no point discussing this matter any further.

If on the other hand your answer is the air, then why would that unwanted energy’s source suddenly change from the air to the floor when you move indoors to a listening room? Are you thinking with me, Dave? In fact, if air-borne vibrations are inducing that much harm to your car and your body outdoors, how much more harm will those air-borne vibrations induce on your components when those sound waves are trapped inside your listening room? Or are you one of those who thinks only vibrations below 33Hz induce harm because you can see and feel its effects?

BTW, your pulsating rearview mirror in that car analogy is excellent example of what’s going on inside your components on a smaller scale of course, e.g. op-amps, transistors, tubes, etc.

Maybe this simple car analogy provides some insight as to why even to this day vibration isolation products are considered a tweak or an accessory? Could it be that until now all such isolation products have barely scratched the surface of proper vibration mgmt because few if any understand the premise or even the source of the real problem?

Also, since electricity is a form of vibration, it’s a known fact that wire vibrates with current passing through it. And if internal wiring vibrates, is it not safe to assume all electrical innards within a component with current passing through them are also potentially vibrating to one small extent or another. Of course then there’s those pesky power supplies, motors, etc.

And once a single vibration from any source enters the object (and it does), exactly how does the vibration isolationist allow it to escape before it begins releasing / dissipating its energy?

I’d be curious to hear about your experiments with coupling / grounding products.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I make afffordable isolation products for the measuring and laser industry .. I halfheartedly expanded this to hifi as a sort of sideline (I do laser cutting and engraving, cnc work etc..so easy to fabricate out of stuff like acrylic on demand)..

I must be frank that the only items that maybe need it in hifi is TT's and valve stuff that can be microphonic ..

http://u-tunez.co.za/Home/

My platforms/footers can isolate or couple..up to you which way you want it and can be extensively configured ..HOWEVER whichever way you go , there is no ways that you can avoid airborn vibes which account for most of the issues ..
I have one of my big platforms under my devialet , makes no difference to the sound but looks quite nice tho..
I do have a Thorens TT on one of the platforms too..but its really not high end .. tho it does work if I thump the stand its on vs no isolation table

 

[Argonaut]

I use a combination of Stillpoints ESS rack together with Shun Mook GDR's which I find retains the leading edge clarity of the former combined with a natural harmonic resonance from the latter.


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[ddk]

Your questions about active isolation being appropriate for audio equipment are interesting. I think I read that one turntable was recently developed with a company like Herzan to incorporate an active platform. This question about non moving microscopes being different from moving audio equipment on active platforms has been brought up before. Some have even speculated that a mid level turntable placed on a $12K Herzan may outperform a turntable costing many times more.

Perhaps some other ultra expensive turntables are experimenting with active isolation, but there may be a reason that we have not seen any.

I think that was a prototype table by Doehmann in Munich we still have to hear the final the product and how this type active isolation incorporated in the the design works. Continuum was an example of an over engineered design that IMO never delivered the goods. Active isolation isn't a new concept, been around for a while, Walker table has air suspension built into it feet, Sirius tables came with their air stand and there were a few others that I don't recall right now. Now we electronic isolation as the new tech and we'll see more of it, wether it works or not.

Speculations are just that, good foundation/isolation is an enhancement and not a cure for bad design. Still waiting for Reid to reply, he disappeared after giving us his contact info .

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think that was a prototype table by Doehmann in Munich we still have to hear the final the product and how this type active isolation incorporated in the the design works. Continuum was an example of an over engineered design that IMO never delivered the goods. Active isolation isn't a new concept, been around for a while, Walker table has air suspension built into it feet, Sirius tables came with their air stand and there were a few others that I don't recall right now. Now we electronic isolation as the new tech and we'll see more of it, wether it works or not.

Speculations are just that, good foundation/isolation is an enhancement and not a cure for bad design. Still waiting for Reid to reply, he disappeared after giving us his contact info .

david

active leveling is a far different concept than active isolation in 6 degrees of motion.

all those air suspension devices only have active leveling. their isolation is strictly passive. they are springs.

 

[Argonaut]

You are not isolating or decoupling ,you are directly coupling your components.
Keith.

Whatever Keith.

 

[DaveC]

Load of BS, seriously misguided? Come let us reason together, Dave.

Let’s start off with a simple analogy that I’ve used before:

Assume you're stopped at a traffic light. Suddenly your entire car starts pulsating severely by some kid's subwoofer in the car directly behind you. You're stomach's in knots and you're thinking maybe you'd get some relief if you blew chunks. You look in your rearview mirror to see the kid in the car behind but it too is pulsating so severely you can't even tell if it's a boy or girl. Everything in the mirror is just a pulsating blur. Now your car is resting on air-filled radial footers as is the car behind you pumping out the subterranean bass with a 2000 wpc amp.

From whence are the vibrations entering your car, the pavement or the air?

If your response is the pavement, I’ll ask one more question using that same analogy.

Which would cause your rearview mirror to vibrate more, that subwoofer in the car behind you or a city worker jackhammering the pavement 5 ft. from your car? If your answer is the jackhammer, then there’s no point discussing this matter any further.

If on the other hand your answer is the air, then why would that unwanted energy’s source suddenly change from the air to the floor when you move indoors to a listening room? Are you thinking with me, Dave? In fact, if air-borne vibrations are inducing that much harm to your car and your body outdoors, how much more harm will those air-borne vibrations induce on your components when those sound waves are trapped inside your listening room? Or are you one of those who thinks only vibrations below 33Hz induce harm because you can see and feel its effects?

BTW, your pulsating rearview mirror in that car analogy is excellent example of what’s going on inside your components on a smaller scale of course, e.g. op-amps, transistors, tubes, etc.

Maybe this simple car analogy provides some insight as to why even to this day vibration isolation products are considered a tweak or an accessory? Could it be that until now all such isolation products have barely scratched the surface of proper vibration mgmt because few if any understand the premise or even the source of the real problem?

Also, since electricity is a form of vibration, it’s a known fact that wire vibrates with current passing through it. And if internal wiring vibrates, is it not safe to assume all electrical innards within a component with current passing through them are also potentially vibrating to one small extent or another. Of course then there’s those pesky power supplies, motors, etc.

And once a single vibration from any source enters the object (and it does), exactly how does the vibration isolationist allow it to escape before it begins releasing / dissipating its energy?

I’d be curious to hear about your experiments with coupling / grounding products.

I'm not disputing that air transmits vibration, if it didn't we all put a ton of cash into a completely worthless hobby...

I'm also not disputing that electric current causes mechanical vibration, this is very well known.

However, in a typical audio system, if the speakers are coupled to the floor it will result in the floor vibrating, which in turn transmits vibration to the rest of the house, including components, and causes various things to rattle and vibrate. These vibrations also use the coupling to travel back to the speakers and will adversely affect them as well. This approach is what I think is misguided, but it is promoted by people who claim vibration seeks ground as does electricity. Nevermind the analogy is horribly flawed, it may apply to lightning but not so much to powering an audio system. They think that the floor the audio system sits on is a "sink" or "ground" for vibration and everything should be rigidly coupled to the floor to transmit vibration to the floor and thus "drain" vibration from the speakers and components. I believe this does not work as intended whether the results are considered positive or not, for me the results are very bad sounding compared to using viscoelastic material to dissipate vibrational energy.

As far as vibration transmitted by air and electric current, the same devices that decouple the component from the floor or surface it sits on will go a long way to dissipating this vibrational energy as well, but many people go further by mass loading, applying damping to the chassis, etc. Additionally, wires, capacitors, inductors and trafos can all be mechanically damped as well, many people have found great benefit to doing this. I use damping materials in the cables I build as well, both for the wires and for the connectors.

I think much of this is well known as many manufacturers go to great lengths to make sure their chassis designs address these concerns. I own the Sony HAP-Z1ES music server, even a big company like Sony has put a lot of effort into the HAP-Z1ES chassis and footers. Most footers I tried are not better than the stock footers Sony uses.

I will say I don't have the cash for Stillpoints and the like, they are super-high markup luxury items and I cannot afford products like this. I did settle on Herbie's iso-ball footers, they are better than anything else I have tried, even moderately expensive stuff like BDR, Synergistic, and many more. I think Herbie's offers a good value and products that work very well. If you experiment you can find low-cost materials that may work well too, like rope caulk, but you can trust Herbie's products to sound good when used as intended. For speakers and subs I think IsoAcoustics products work very well if you have the vertical height to spare. In fact, with your subwoofer example where the sub is rattling everything, try placing a sub on spikes vs IsoAcoustics sub stands and you will find the Iso stand eliminates a great deal of sympathetic vibration. Of course it can't prevent airborne vibration but it does a great job preventing the sub's energy from driving the floor.

 

[PeterA]

Assume you're stopped at a traffic light. Suddenly your entire car starts pulsating severely by some kid's subwoofer in the car directly behind you. You're stomach's in knots and you're thinking maybe you'd get some relief if you blew chunks. You look in your rearview mirror to see the kid in the car behind but it too is pulsating so severely you can't even tell if it's a boy or girl. Everything in the mirror is just a pulsating blur. Now your car is resting on air-filled radial footers as is the car behind you pumping out the subterranean bass with a 2000 wpc amp.

From whence are the vibrations entering your car, the pavement or the air?

If your response is the pavement, I’ll ask one more question using that same analogy.

Which would cause your rearview mirror to vibrate more, that subwoofer in the car behind you or a city worker jackhammering the pavement 5 ft. from your car? If your answer is the jackhammer, then there’s no point discussing this matter any further.

Pretty funny stuff. I hear these woofers blasting from cars almost daily. Now, consider this image: if a person is standing on the pavement with the jackhammer ten feet away to one side and the car blasting a subwoofer ten feet away on the other side, will his body be more effected by the jackhammer or by the subwoofer? Will he feel the jackhammer impact in his whole body? Will he feel the subwoofer pulsing over his entire body. Which has a larger effect on his body?

The inflated car tires do attenuate the impact of the jackhammer, similar to the way that an isolation device attenuates the floor born vibrations attempting to effect the audio components. That is one way to address this type of vibrations.

Another problem is air born vibrations. These can be lessoned by moving the component into another room, minimizing a component's physical profile, increasing its mass, and perhaps in some other ways.

Another problem is internally generated mechanical vibrations. These can be addressed through design within the components themselves and/or through attempts to drain the energy down and out of the component and into some mass or path away from the component.

I have not read any information that discusses which of these sources of vibrations is greatest in the typical home audio system. It probably depends on the system and room to some extent. Nor have I read which source of vibrations causes the most distortions in the audio system as a whole.

I would welcome a discussion about these different vibrations and some support of steno's suggestion that mechanical vibrations are the single cause for the vast amount of distortions in our components.

I would imagine that a serious effort to address each of these types of vibrations independently would result in a decrease in distortions and much better sound from our audio systems.

 

[PeterA]

You are right of course ,coupling or decoupling won't make the slightest difference to these solid state components.
Keith.

I have had very positive results by placing my SS Pass amps up on pre loaded, ballasted Vibraplanes.

I am thinking about experimenting with ways to attempt to drain the internal vibrations out of these amps into the 280 lbs of steel mass on which they sit. That way, both the internal and the floor born vibrations will be somewhat addressed.

My vibration management solution for my turntables attempts to address three types of vibrations:

1. floor born with the Vibraplane
2. air born with the SME thin profile design and suspension on lower base
3. internal mechanical vibrations by draining out of the table through the ball bearing feet into the 280 lbs of steel. The tonearm base is designed to drain vibrations out and into the mass of the upper base. The motor vibrations are drained to the lower base and out through the footers.

At least this is the idea behind my turntable/Vibraplane stack.

 

[Argonaut]

you are right of course ,coupling or decoupling won't make the slightest difference to these solid state components.
Keith.

Epic Fail !!!!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gosh Keith, you really are doing the rounds. Grounding makes no difference, power cords make no difference, now isolation/vibration control makes no difference.
What do you think a turntable is Keith, if not a solid state component? Platter rotating, transformer humming, vibrations all.
Why don't you go onto the digital section, and tell them all there that the spectrum of DACs don't make a difference, check out the barely-concealed mirth that will result.
How is your mission to convert a whole bunch of subjectivists w/more money than sense as you would label us, to the objective fold, coming along? Pretty slowly I'm sure.
I don't know of any other industry expert on these boards that continues to humourlessly dismiss the bulk of the membership's interests while shamelessly peddling his own wares and portfolio.
Be advised, I have spoken at length with Graham of Spiers And Robertson, and while he admits tt's and spkrs would benefit most from isolation, he was enthusiastic that cdp's, DACs, pre/pwr amps etc would all derive benefit, since they all have components that vibrate (transformers), are inherently vibration-creating by design (cdp platters), and are prone to self-generated/and externally-wrought vibrations (capacitors, valves), and these would hence all be helped by having effective isolation/vibration management.
Or maybe you'd like to disagree w/him (would be quite something since you've bought products from him) too.

 

[PeterA]

You can't drain vibration from your components, the component will continue to vibrate ,to some extent while it is switched on, but it doesn't matter because that vibration will not have the slightest impact on the sound quality.
Keith.

I thought that this was the premise of stehno's claim. So you are saying that these vibrations remain in the component and that nothing can be done about them, or something can be done, they just can't be drained out?

Isn't this the whole concept behind the Stillpoints pucks? Vibrations are drained out and then converted to heat. If what you say is true, then what does Stillpoints claim it is doing?

 

[stehno]

You are not isolating or decoupling ,you are directly coupling your components.
Keith.

He's direct coupling in appearance only. Between the Plexiglas, the cables, the ebony, and the Stillpoints, there's very little energy going anywhere.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You can't drain vibration from your components, the component will continue to vibrate ,to some extent while it is switched on, but it doesn't matter because that vibration will not have the slightest impact on the sound quality.
Keith.

I'm not sure the word 'drain' is properly used to describe what happens when internal circuit microphonics are reduced through various processes. it's more reducing outside resonance effects. the more robust and elegant the design, the better these issues are addressed in the internal design and build quality. many times in speaker crossovers they get 'potted' to avoid the extreme vibrations inside a speaker cabinet. other times boards are shock mounted. or installed inside separate chambers inside a case which began as a solid billet. but as one climbs the food chain of higher performance gear this issue gets more and more attention.

to say "it doesn't matter" is simply ignorant of this aspect of design. many times manufacturers will coach customers as to where to place footers to work the best to improve performance.....because they realize that their gear will 'sing' along with the music without some attention to this. surprising that a high end audio dealer would not realize this as obvious.

most high end gear will not typically vibrate on its own by being turned on (lower level gear can have microphonic power supplies that do vibrate). or if there is a component which has some sort of mechanical vibration then designed in isolation will be used to localize it. however it is quite variable in how the gear may react to structure borne or air pressure resonance. and users can address these variables to some degree.

 

[ddk]

active leveling is a far different concept than active isolation in 6 degrees of motion.

all those air suspension devices only have active leveling. their isolation is strictly passive. they are springs.

By active I meant that there's a pump keeping the air pressure constant instead of a hand pump.

david