What does it mean when people describe Digital as Sounding like "Analog"? Best term?

[Al M.]

No one says he his neutral - it is impossible to be neutral in these subjects. As any one should know in psycho-acoustics affairs the only consensus of neutrality is statistical, something that is not possible as we are a too small community. His points are clearly explained, we should be able to debate them without questioning his expertise.

His points are clearly explained: this brings me to the question if any of the detractors has read his interview yet.

For convenience, here is the link again:

https://www.spiritofturtle.com/inte...f-in-copper-magazine-issue-65/?v=796834e7a283

 

[microstrip]

when you guys come up with the access to this separate dimension where digital has more information than analog send me a link to that.

in my dimension it's just not like that.

and i keep trying to listen to measurements but somehow they can't really make music. so they are besides the point.



i suppose my 30,000 albums of music are all lying too. my 7.1.4 channels of Dolby Atmos high rez in my home theater can't compete with my 2 channels of analog either.

maybe there is an alternate definition of "information"?


appears to indicate what tells you more about what happened would be more information. yep, thought so.

Logical conclusion - you assembled and tailored a great system to make analog sound at its best and have a very large music collection. Congratulations!

BTW information in this subject is related to the capability of conveying data describing facts and also our ability to decode it. People write books on what is information, do not expect to find answers in dictionaries. And no, again, it is not a competition , but properly used your home theater carries more information than your analog stereo ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

No one says he his neutral - it is impossible to be neutral in these subjects. As any one should know in psycho-acoustics affairs the only consensus of neutrality is statistical, something that is not possible as we are a too small community. His points are clearly explained, we should be able to debate them without questioning his expertise.

Going to facts - although I asked several times, no one ever referred to an LP having the quality and complexity of my favorite Savall "Routes de l'Esclavage" or an LP of Shostakovitch 5th or 8th carrying the same unadulterated information as for example, the Haitink digital versions.

yes; i have..........game, set, match to this analog Mstislav Rostropovitch recording......among many others. digital cannot pull off this level of magic.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/msb-select-ii-arrival.23302/page-18#post-457567

or this 45rpm pressing of the Peter Maag Mendelssohn Scotch Symphony........string textures, again, digital cannot dream about.

https://elusivedisc.com/mendelssohn-symphony-no-3-numbered-limited-edition-180g-45rpm-2lp/

and i love all the Savall's btw. and agree they are among the very best of digital. i have many of them in high rez.

 

[Lagonda]

Well perhaps the recording engineer in that interview hasn't heard top vinyl playback, but I suppose he has compared analog tape and digital in his studio system, i.e., under identical conditions.

Regardless, the interview is an interesting read.

Al, from the 4 year i was part owner in a commercial recording studio i have come to realize that engineers/producers are a different breed of people.They have excellent ears but a totally different mindset, most do not care about “natural” or recreating an event, they like to manipulate sound to their liking. Big sound, round bass, compressors that dirty up certain tracks on a recording is more interesting to them, and a good master is often given its final listen in a shitty car stereo. These people love digital recording for its cut and paste convenience, running the same 20 seconds again and again adding on effects voice overs and extra instruments to make it sound different or catchy. Natural and recreation of real events is rarely on the Radar (Random Access Digital Audio Recorder) system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Al, from the 4 year i was part owner in a commercial recording studio i have come to realize that engineers/producers are a different breed of people.They have excellent ears but a totally different mindset, most do not care about “natural” or recreating an event, they like to manipulate sound to their liking. Big sound, round bass, compressors that dirty up certain tracks on a recording is more interesting to them, and a good master is often given its final listen in a shitty car stereo. These people love digital recording for its cut and paste convenience, running the same 20 seconds again and again adding on effects voice overs and extra instruments to make it sound different or catchy. Natural and recreation of real events is rarely on the Radar (Random Access Digital Audio Recorder) system.

Well Milan, these guys would just ADORE our "beloved" cables ABA comparisons. 20 seconds...over and over and over...again.

 

[Al M.]

yes; i have..........game, set, match to this analog Mstislav Rostropovitch recording......among many others. digital cannot pull of this level of magic.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/msb-select-ii-arrival.23302/page-18#post-457567

or this Peter Maag Mendelssohn Scotch Symphony........string textures, again, digital cannot dream about.

https://elusivedisc.com/mendelssohn-symphony-no-3-numbered-limited-edition-180g-45rpm-2lp/

Sorry, Mike, but how do you know if these string textures that "digital cannot dream about" are realistic when, as you concede, your live concert experience is limited?

They may sound magical, but how do you know they sound real?

 

[Al M.]

Al, from the 4 year i was part owner in a commercial recording studio i have come to realize that engineers/producers are a different breed of people.They have excellent ears but a totally different mindset, most do not care about “natural” or recreating an event, they like to manipulate sound to their liking. Big sound, round bass, compressors that dirty up certain tracks on a recording is more interesting to them, and a good master is often given its final listen in a shitty car stereo. These people love digital recording for its cut and paste convenience, running the same 20 seconds again and again adding on effects voice overs and extra instruments to make it sound different or catchy. Natural and recreation of real events is rarely on the Radar (Random Access Digital Audio Recorder) system.

Lagonda, what you are describing seem to be rock/pop sound recording engineers. Classical recording engineers, like the one we are talking about, are a different breed. And unlike what's going on with compression in the current "loudness wars", in classical music engineers in general try to preserve dynamic range.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry, Mike, but how do you know if these string textures that "digital cannot dream about" are realistic when, as you concede, your live concert experience is limited?

They may sound magical, but how do you know they sound real?

we are speaking here about playing back recorded string textures.......which i do all the time. i've heard live large orchestral. and it's easy to hear congealed strings verses naturally presented strings.

i have lots of 2xdsd vinyl rips (1000 or so) where i compare the vinyl to the ripped version. i can easily hear what is not there. that is the question. what could be on the recording playback? and what is missing?

 

[bonzo75]

What I respect on these threads is Mike's repeated patience to explain the same thing over and over when he should feel like banging his head against a brick wall. I don't know why he bothers

 

[Lagonda]

Lagonda, what you are describing seem to be rock/pop sound recording engineers. Classical recording engineers, like the one we are talking about, are a different breed. And unlike what's going on with compression in the current "loudness wars", in classical music engineers in general try to preserve dynamic range.

Yes i must admit the closest to “classical”i’ve been was Al Di Meola’s
guitar

 

[Al M.]

we are speaking here about playing back recorded string textures.......which i do all the time. i've heard live large orchestral. and it's easy to hear congealed strings verses naturally presented strings.

i have lots of 2xdsd vinyl rips (1000 or so) where i compare the vinyl to the ripped version. i can easily hear what is not there. that is the question. what could be on the recording playback? and what is missing?

Yes, it's easy to hear congealed strings. Yet I have heard "magical" string textures from analog that have made me question their authenticity, beautiful as they may have sounded. I have also heard beautiful string textures from analog that I found very realistic. But so did I from digital.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What I respect on these threads is Mike's repeated patience to explain the same thing over and over . . .

+1

 

[bonzo75]

Al, from the 4 year i was part owner in a commercial recording studio i have come to realize that engineers/producers are a different breed of people.They have excellent ears but a totally different mindset

Your different mindset is visible in your exchanges with Tang.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can we reconcile some of the different views of this debate by agreeing that:

"Stipulating that digital recording captures, at least in some technical way, more information of some type than does analog recording, whatever is that additional information it doesn't necessarily result in a more natural or realistic recreation of the sound of an original musical event when we re-play that information on our two-channel stereos."

 

[PeterA]

His points are clearly explained: this brings me to the question if any of the detractors has read his interview yet.

For convenience, here is the link again:

https://www.spiritofturtle.com/inte...f-in-copper-magazine-issue-65/?v=796834e7a283

I read it last night Al. Thank you again for providing the link. In no way does it change my impression of which format sounds more like real music to me. Theory is one thing and it was interesting to read. But when I actually listen and compare the two formats I hear something different and have a rather strong preference.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Can we reconcile some of the different views of this debate by agreeing that:

"Stipulating that digital recording captures, at least in some technical way, more information of some type than does analog recording, whatever is that additional information it doesn't necessarily result in a more natural or realistic recreation of the sound of an original musical event when we re-play that information on our two-channel stereos."

Yep, that should end the debate, stipulating things. Next!...

 

[Al M.]

I read it last night Al. Thank you again for providing the link. In no way does it change my impression of which format sounds more like real music to me. Theory is one thing and it was interesting to read. But when I actually listen and compare the two formats I hear something different and have a rather strong preference.

Which of course is perfectly fine, Peter. I personally have a less strong preference either way; my perception is that both formats can sound very realistic. At the same time I did question lately the authenticity of some -- emphasis on some -- of the beautiful sounds I have heard from analog.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yep, that should end the debate, stipulating things. Next!...

Yes, Marc; it is one of several standard techniques to reduce the number of open issues in an attempt to build consensus -- whether engaged in a two person conversation, a contractual negotiation, a legislative deliberation, or an on-line forum, among other situations.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, Marc; it is one of several standard techniques to reduce the number of open issues in an attempt to build consensus -- whether engaged in a two person conversation, a contractual negotiation, a legislative deliberation, or an on-line forum, among other situations.

Consensus is a compromise.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes, Marc; it is one of several standard techniques to reduce the number of open issues in an attempt to build consensus -- whether engaged in a two person conversation, a contractual negotiation, a legislative deliberation, or an on-line forum, among other situations.

But Ron, it's pointless to think this this debate can ever be reconciled. All you're doing is stating a truism.