What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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You didn't get my point ;-)

Sure I did.

Of course EVERY hifi system can sound great, if well-thoughted put together and proper room treatment.

But there will be ALWAYS a better system out there ;-)

As I implied in my last paragraph.

Nothing to disagree, I just wanted to make the point that I made. The dollar amount is not everything.
 

PYP

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2022
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Southwest, USA
Money is not everything. Without proper effort it's worthless. But it seems in this hobby some just throw money at their problems.
Some do. And others are collectors who enjoy the aesthetics, design and execution as well as experimenting to get the best outcome. Depending upon taste, given the price of audio jewelry, the total price is far higher than if the goal is just musical enjoyment and realistic sound.

Completely agree that the room and power management is the foundation and the biggest contributor to realistic sound. Took me a long while to learn this.
 

Sampajanna

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2021
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Some people may want bragging rights, and kudos if they do. However, my experience with Hifi friends around the world who have epic systems is rarely that. They are often kind and helpful, and have such systems because they are passionate about audio and what the best sound. Some rarely even have guests…. I personally am not motivated too much by bragging rights.
 

billeames

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Mar 6, 2023
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I expected to be blown away by the DCS Rossini Apex. When compared to analog, it was not as good ($67000 turntable) and at another store a Master innovation with the tt1 arm and goldfinger cartridge which is dcs vivaldi price territory. Its the sound that is different and more forward for digital. and more relaxed for analog.

I'd like to see a review of a 50k front end for analog and 50K cd player compared. The magazines tend to compare to other products of the same type.

thanks

Bill (new member)
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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I expected to be blown away by the DCS Rossini Apex. When compared to analog, it was not as good ($67000 turntable) and at another store a Master innovation with the tt1 arm and goldfinger cartridge which is dcs vivaldi price territory. Its the sound that is different and more forward for digital. and more relaxed for analog.

I'd like to see a review of a 50k front end for analog and 50K cd player compared. The magazines tend to compare to other products of the same type.

thanks

Bill (new member)

Welcome to the forum, Bill.

Was it a comparison of the same masterings of the same recordings? Let's makes it apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

I agree that the sound of a turntable can have more allure on some recordings than digital, no question about it. However, I am not sure if I would always prefer a more "relaxed sound". I love John McLaughlin's Live at Ronnie Scotts (2017) on CD. Yet when I heard it on LP I was heavily disappointed (it was also clearly a different mastering). Yes, it sounded warmer, but it also had lost any of the bite and energy that I appreciate on this kind of jazz rock, and while it sounded more relaxed, it also sounded immensely more boring. I could never live with that sound. Yes, the music sounded "nicer", but at the same time it had lost all its purpose and drive. I could name other examples, but this one should suffice for the point I intend to make.

So it depends. Sometimes a more "forward" sound on digital can be decisively a musical virtue. Great digital can also sound eminently relaxed when it should, but again, that depends on recording and mastering, as well as on the precise system context.

I am not ready to give a clean bill of health to either digital or analog. Again, it depends. It is not a black and white situation, but one of many shades.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I expected to be blown away by the DCS Rossini Apex. When compared to analog, it was not as good ($67000 turntable) and at another store a Master innovation with the tt1 arm and goldfinger cartridge which is dcs vivaldi price territory. Its the sound that is different and more forward for digital. and more relaxed for analog.

I'd like to see a review of a 50k front end for analog and 50K cd player compared. The magazines tend to compare to other products of the same type.

thanks

Bill (new member)

IMO you should not compare analog to digital in the same system in A/B tests in shops. Listen with time to both sounding great in optimized systems and be prepared to accept the differences and make compromises.
Remember the words of Karen Summer on A/B testing, that I fully endorse.

"The engineering staff and I prefer to listen over the long term—no one can go for hours conducting A/B tests and make any real progress. We make a change and then live with it over a period of time, and then go back to the original cable. A/B tests nearly always lead you down the wrong path, because you invariably focus on a single or several specific elements of sound quality. "

And do not expect reviews to make your home work!
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
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Any given system must be setup for a given source this is how I see it. Yes you can make your system multi format example analog tape , vinyl
Digital too. but they are very much not the same I’m sound texture and a whole bunch of accolades we use to describe what we hear
exp dacs are worth the effort but any item needs to be set up well. anyone who says just buy good stuff and all is good is wrong Period.
dcs is good in a given situation but not so much in a setup not set up for them.
 

AMR / iFi audio

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Aug 21, 2019
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Some people may want bragging rights, and kudos if they do. However, my experience with Hifi friends around the world who have epic systems is rarely that. They are often kind and helpful, and have such systems because they are passionate about audio and what the best sound. Some rarely even have guests…. I personally am not motivated too much by bragging rights.
Personally, I find great joy in showing people a new presentation of music and looking for their reactions. Enjoying the sound is one thing, but the conversation starter factor is worth considering as well! :D
 
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Colekat

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Sep 7, 2015
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Rehoboth, Massachusetts
Personally, I find great joy in showing people a new presentation of music and looking for their reactions. Enjoying the sound is one thing, but the conversation starter factor is worth considering as well! :D
… I agree …to both … I have had the distinction of being able to set up more than a few decent rigs … We are a small Salon with a few listening areas and with careful adjustments and some time invested , have found great results given the gear and the source .
It is a great feeling to hear clients say “ I cant believe how good it sounds “ … and we hear that quite a bit. Its a great way to start a conversation … and a friendship . I guess whatever brings people to together , as long as they all like whatever it is , can start something special ... and with audio … there is so much to talk about . I have cultivated some pretty solid friendships , that rooted in audio … and it goes both ways , I have certainly been blown away listening to other systems , more than the ones I get to set up . Everything I learn comes from listening to other systems and using those experiences in our set ups .
Analog , Digital , Streaming , CDs , analog tape , LPs , etc. they all have value , they all have the ability to bring joy and satisfaction to the listeners . The slight changes we make that net pleasurable results are great to share with others . Isn’t that why we are on this site and others !

There’s plenty to talk about thats for sure …
 

AMR / iFi audio

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2019
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ifi-audio.com
… I agree …to both … I have had the distinction of being able to set up more than a few decent rigs … We are a small Salon with a few listening areas and with careful adjustments and some time invested , have found great results given the gear and the source .
It is a great feeling to hear clients say “ I cant believe how good it sounds “ … and we hear that quite a bit. Its a great way to start a conversation … and a friendship . I guess whatever brings people to together , as long as they all like whatever it is , can start something special ... and with audio … there is so much to talk about . I have cultivated some pretty solid friendships , that rooted in audio … and it goes both ways , I have certainly been blown away listening to other systems , more than the ones I get to set up . Everything I learn comes from listening to other systems and using those experiences in our set ups .
Analog , Digital , Streaming , CDs , analog tape , LPs , etc. they all have value , they all have the ability to bring joy and satisfaction to the listeners . The slight changes we make that net pleasurable results are great to share with others . Isn’t that why we are on this site and others !

There’s plenty to talk about thats for sure …
I love your approach to all of this. I have also made friendships through audio and now I can't imagine what I'd do without it. And hearing compliments about your audio system is always nice... You could stand next to one stereo system and take a whole day to discuss its intricacies, so yes, there's plenty to talk about in this hobby :D often it's more than time allows...
 

dgale

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Sep 22, 2020
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I’ll share with you my “DAC journey”.

I began in this hobby around 2015. My first DAC was an OPPO Sonica DAC approx $800
For some unknown reason I had it modded by Modwright to a tube DAC+external LPSU.

It was a game changer for me. One of my first experiences in how electronics - in this case a DAC - can transform the musical presentation. Given that the Modwright mod cost $2500. it should have!

My next - and current - DAC is CHORD DAVE.
Again, at $14K it is several cost multiples of even the modded OPPO, the change in detail, timbre, soundstage, in short every aspect of the sound was well beyond what I thought my system was capable of giving.

Next DAC upgrade was to add the M Scaler. I must admit it was not as dramatic a change as the DAVE, but as I recall it tightened the bass noticeably and gave the overall sound a more “cohesive” presentation. And so I thought from this point, additional DAC upgrades would offer only incremental change. Not so at all!

A few months ago I added a $10K Sean Jacobs DC4ARC6 external LPSU to the DAVE. (A while ago I had added a Teddy Pardo LPS to the M Scaler, with not too noticeable effect IMO.)

I cannot express how exponentially the sound improvement was. If a “tweak” can cost $10K, this was the most substantial tweak I’ve ever made. The only comparable changes my system has undergone was changing amps or speakers in a major way (like from SS to tube, or Rockports to Tannoy).

So my journey has been from a $800 DAC to a “DAC kit” costing around $30K. I can’t compare my setup to other comparably priced DACs like Lampi, etc, never mind the wisdom of adding to the DAVE as opposed to upgrading to a more costly DAC. (My budget tends to allow for “incremental” adds, so I often take the mod or upgrade path for a piece of equipment I have). But from $800 to where I am now - and each move up along the way - I have never regretted investing in my DAC. IMO it is crucial to getting the best sound out of your other components.
Good luck to you.
 
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Sampajanna

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Apr 1, 2021
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I had Dave and Mscaler both with SJ power supplies and wavestorm cables. I had that for years. I loved it. It is great. However, the Lampi Pacific blew that setup away IMHO. No comparisons.
 

Another Johnson

VIP/Donor
Jan 13, 2022
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My experience has been that DACs do vary.

I have several here. Bluesound Node, Marantz ND8006, Marantz Ruby, Levinson 5101, McIntosh MDA200, and dCS Rossini (pre-Apex). I’ve auditioned the Rossini Apex and the current top Vivaldi stack, but not in my own system.

All the DACs here do their job. My wife isn’t particular about one over another. For background listening, it’s hard to argue that an expensive one is better than a cheaper one.

But when you sit down in front of the speakers to really engage with the music, the differences become clear. The Rossini is clearly a step ahead, and the Node is clearly a step behind. The Ruby, 5101, and MDA200 are different, but nice in their own ways.

I’m seriously considering sending my Rossini back for the Apex mod. Emron Mangelson recommended the Apex upgrade ahead of the Master Clock upgrade, but I will probably eventually do both based on in store auditions.
 

AMR / iFi audio

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2019
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We believe that DACs are crucial to great sound, hence we have so many of them in our offer. It's really about synergy between the source and the rest of the system. A less expensive DAC can sound better because it fits the sound signature of the system. That's why auditions are so important!
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,210
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Alpharetta, Georgia
My experience has been that DACs do vary.

I have several here. Bluesound Node, Marantz ND8006, Marantz Ruby, Levinson 5101, McIntosh MDA200, and dCS Rossini (pre-Apex). I’ve auditioned the Rossini Apex and the current top Vivaldi stack, but not in my own system.

All the DACs here do their job. My wife isn’t particular about one over another. For background listening, it’s hard to argue that an expensive one is better than a cheaper one.

But when you sit down in front of the speakers to really engage with the music, the differences become clear. The Rossini is clearly a step ahead, and the Node is clearly a step behind. The Ruby, 5101, and MDA200 are different, but nice in their own ways.

I’m seriously considering sending my Rossini back for the Apex mod. Emron Mangelson recommended the Apex upgrade ahead of the Master Clock upgrade, but I will probably eventually do both based on in store auditions.
The Apex mod is so worth it!
 

Hilroy48

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2021
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Regina Sk Canada
My journey has taught me that the DAC is the meat and potatoes of the digital source. I messed around with a $400 DAC, then a $1000 DAC the sound improved. Then made the jump to an Aqua La-Voce S3 DAC. And that has been the end game. I then Stepped up to an Audiolab 6000 CDT. was a vast improvement, then a Wire world Silver Eclipse 8 Cable. Now the icing on the cake, I just bought an Audiolab 9000CDT. we are now happy. But getting on topic the better the external DAC, the better the overall sound.
 

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