What is the most musical, fast and accurate subwoofer you have heard?

May 30, 2010
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#82
This, brand new fresh news; it's food for subwoofer's aficionados: "Dual-Plane Inertially-Balanced" SuperSub Design

* Review
The beautiful SonusFaber Gravis subwoofer that stays in my listening room since more than a decade already had two opposing loaded passive speakers, but on the sides, not on bottom and top. Should I put some feet one the side and turn it down to help "coupling low frequency energy onto the floor of the listening room"? (quoted text taken from the patent)
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member & Super Moderator
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Apr 20, 2010
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#83
The original post asked for opinions from subwoofer owners WITH EXPERIENCE WITH A GIVEN SUB to discuss the performance of those devices. Please refrain from posting links and comments on subwoofers (as I am also guilty of) with which we have no personal experience. There is always the opportunity to start a new thread that talks about new subwoofer designs and products, and not by filling this thread with those comments.

Thanks,

Lee
 

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
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#84
This, brand new fresh news; it's food for subwoofer's aficionados: "Dual-Plane Inertially-Balanced" SuperSub Design

* Review
How this was considered non-obvious is mind boggling, but also common for the current state of the patent process. I suspect this would easily get shot down in a challenge, but now that can only happen at great expense to both Golden Ear and who ever they decided to go after.

We desperately need an online/public process to call to question the validity of applied for, and granted patents.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#85
I posted the last link above because those new subwoofers are the latest designs from the ones I have in my own system, and from another company associated with the same speaker/subwoofer designer, Sandy Gross.
I cannot recommend subs designed ten years ago because in ten years prodigious amount of new technologies have contributed to much better development in performance.
But Sandy Gross was the man behind, and today that's where he's @.
I think it's important to be well educated and informed on the latest about subwoofers.

Sure we can recommend Velodyne subs, Rythmik subs that members have/had direct experience with, models made years ago or from just few years, but we're also here to learn on the latest and to share on what's available today and deserving a serious audition. An open-minded audio forum is one that explores all venues for what's best available today. It's a discussion panel of dignified and educated members who are here to learn even more than what they already know, in the pursuit of advancement.

You can delete this post and all other previous posts of mine from this thread if this is a one-way street without learning capabilities.
I'm fine with that because if that is the case I have not much to learn from it.

The Rythmik and Velodyne subs were recommended few times by real owners and with real experience. That's great.
They have direct servo technology (Rythmik) and accelerometer (Velodyne, PS Audio, some Paradigm,...); that's cool.
A complete description of the owner's room and entire system with exact model numbers and positioning (pictures welcome) would be more informative in its totality.
I did not see such description here, only brief subwoofer brand recommendation and that's about it.

But yes, I know exactly what you're saying.

From my own real experience, having a DSP EQ integrated in the system with mains and subwoofers (@ least two, one is not enough), is what one should look for in subwoofer integration with the rest of the system; servo technology alone is not enough...IMO.

I feel it's important what I just said; with all due respect.
________

EDIT: Mark I've just seen your above post. I am not a subwoofer expert, I don't design subs; I just read reviews, comments, concepts, ...and try to adapt with the multitude of good ones.
We're here to discuss, you just made some comments, and I've read several more. Those are newer subs, same as the new released SVS subs we mentioned previously.
And those are all between roughly $1,250 and $2,500 ... which is a good target range for many many subwoofer shoppers.
I bet very soon we'll have a subwoofer for around $1,000 with integrated Dirac Live in it. ...From 8Hz to 200Hz.
 
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RBFC

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#86
As I stated in my previous post, THIS thread was submitted with specific response criteria in mind. We all ARE interested in hearing about new designs and discussing the latest trends, etc. Any member is free to start a new thread where these topics are the focus. Here, the original poster is asking for subwoofer information from members who have direct experience with a specific model. Please limit the discussion in this thread to situations that meet that request. Posts that do not follow this theme are not welcome IN THIS THREAD.

I hope this removes any vague or unclear statements from my first post. Please adhere to the topic of this thread.

Lee
 
May 5, 2020
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#87
...

Philosophically, I like the idea of generating low frequencies naturally -- through big drivers in big enclosures -- rather than through high wattage amplifiers in small boxes.
Not only is this idea water to my mill, but so is its actual realization. I dare say bass reproduced via big drivers in big enclosures is, generally, more musical than that reproduced from smaller, high wattage boxes. By 'musical' I mean bass that blends in more naturally and that simply sounds more like real bass - insofar there's a live, acoustic reference to go by. Horn-load big drivers (in even bigger horns) and those traits are only amplified, the way I perceive it.

Very few, I suspect, get to experience what these large behemoths can sound like, not least horn-loaded subs, and therefore many can only assume their true "impact" - if they even care to in the face of smaller, higher wattage (and often more expensive) alternatives that by far outnumbers those bigger variants in popularity in audiophile circles. I'd even go so far as to claim that big subs with big drivers have, by and large - except among those who're also "die-hard" cinephiles, perhaps - been close to outlawed, and being at least two subs will yield the best results one can almost hear the spousal scream for an adherence to interior-decoration sanity (and a plea for structural integrity as well).

It's a shame the more affordable big-drivers-big-enclosure subs that should also include DIY, henceforth to be called BDBE's, aren't more readily accepted in audiophilia (or so it seems) as other than what mostly caters to the cinephile milieu and movie reproduction, that would have BDBE's the likes of Wilson Audio's Thor's Hammer, costing a small fortune, be among the lone wolves to find some footing in audiophilia. Maybe it's audiophilia standing in its own way here, believing those relatively affordable big brute BDBE's are nowhere near audiophile standard, while my contention would be believing the contrary; they're exactly what we need in the pursuit of great full-range sound (in pairs of more), and they needn't be high-end priced to get the job properly done.

This should, at least implicitly, answer the OP; it's not as much about a particular brand and/or (high) price, but rather sheer capacity via BDBE's and careful implementation. One thing I would advocate specifically, namely the bass principle: make them horns, or variants thereof, but if not an option (or rather: one not chosen) that's certainly OK.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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#88
Jagerst,

I have heard similar comments from others before, and I also have heard "professional studio horn subs" in some custom clubs before, and it sure was a lot of fun (and shockingly good), though I could not truly assess since the whole room (empty at the time pre-opening) and system were completely unknown to me.

At the same time, I genuinely believe that one of the things that great cones do well...is optimize space vs performance. Horns are HUGE. Everything in the all-out arena are the sizes of dining room tables, small pianos (or big pianos). The bass horn I saw was more like 2 pianos on top of each other. By contrast the footprint of many 18" cone subs are 24" x 24" in footprint and often not much taller. And some are even dual 18" subs or dual-cones. Even the mighty Thor is 20" x 24" and roughly 2.5x the height.

Have you heard ANY cone subs you thought were really good? What was the best of the cones you might have heard in your travels?
 
Sep 26, 2020
3
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Würzburg, Germany
#89
Hi everyone, For me, the fastest and most powerful sub to support music is the SMS G 15 from ASCENDO. The manufacturer's homepage says the following:

The SMSG15 convinces in every single aspect, whether in high-profile home theater systems or the editors of renowned worldwide magazines. Awesome performance paired to excellent sound quality dressed in an amazingly compact enclosure - these are the mainstays of this successful and award-winning conception.
The custom-made 15-inch high-tech woofer is equipped with an extremely strong neodymium magnet. Although its cone is very tightly suspended, thus allowing an exceptional high acceleration and control, it shows up with a linear stroke of record-breaking 36mm.

Thus, this unique driver even moves significantly more air than much bigger standard 18" subwoofers. Its bass impact and authority are really stunning. The closed and DSP controlled SMSG15 with its 1000 watts of power impresses with its speed. Remarkable with which timing and resolution the SMSG15 plays also the lowest lows right to the point. With these outstanding features it is ideally suited for all cinema sizes and modern 3D sound formats such as Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D or DTS:X, but as well perceptibly enhances high-quality stereo high-end systems right from the beginning.
SMSG15 – A good deal of high-tech – compact, fast, abyssal and impressive.


https://www.aia-cinema.com/active-speakers/smsg15.html

I use 2 of the SMS G15s because my Ascendo Live 15 has 2 of them installed.
And it sounds great!

best regards
Thomas
 
May 5, 2020
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#90
Jagerst,

...

Have you heard ANY cone subs you thought were really good? What was the best of the cones you might have heard in your travels?
From what I've heard of direct radiating subs the ones with a tune no lower than ~20Hz (typically between 20-25Hz or slightly higher), high efficiency (i.e.: >95dB's), big pro drivers and big enclosures have fared the best to my ears. The Electro-Voice TL880D's come to mind as one of the best DR subs I've heard (two of my friends use them in pairs in their respective set-ups). More compact, lower tune and ditto efficiency subs just sound different; to my ears they generally lack the texture, mid bass attack and and natural room fill by comparison, and most I've heard are marred by overhang - all of which makes them a pain in the a** to integrate properly.

I have limited experience with column bass towers (floor to ceiling), but what I've heard (DIY) was very interesting and also among the best of DR designs.

Horns, be they FLH and TH (albeit not completely similar in sonic imprinting, though with more in common than being different), compared to high efficiency BDBE direct radiating designs are another story again; smoother, more layered, present and enveloping - the bass just comes out in the room, lifted into the air and energizing it. For what it's worth: direct radiator BDBE designs can have an animatingly "punchy" sound that speaks in particular to those who like (and are sonically inspired by) amplified concerts, whereas horn subs sit closer in sonic nature to acoustic live concerts as more fluidly ingrained in the whole.
 
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Lagonda

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Feb 4, 2014
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#91
The best subs i have heard are the Martin Logan Statement E2 sub-towers i use in my setup. The consist of 8 pairs of 12 inch drivers in a “balanced force” setup, acting as dipoles.. With the right crossover setting and amps they blend amazingly well with other fast drivers.They are equally good at placing a helicopter or earthquake in your listening room in movie mode, as play delicate foundation when Ray Brown or Rob Wassermann strut their stuff. I have never tried them with conventional speakers, only with electrostats and omnis.
 
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LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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#92
Thank you both! Yes, I have looked at the Statement E2 subtowers...very large unfortunately. Beautiful I bet. Same goes for big horn subs! So trying to learn which of the smaller subs (think 2' x 2' x 2' each and a pair of them, possibly 3' tall at most). People have mentioned the gargantually expensive and heavy Magico QSub18, the big Seaton Subs and the Funk 18.2s, as well as some of the REL subs which can be stacked. It is a project I am taking my time on...it might be that the laws of physics are not going to bend here, and it is what it is. OTOH, if there is a solution out there, I would really like to find it.
 
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Carlos269

Well-Known Member
Mar 21, 2012
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#93
Hello all and good evening to you. I am thinking about improving the lower octaves in my system once again and I could go with the tried and true I have had before. That was a Velodyne SMS-1 hooked up in the loop with a hefty amplifier just for the VMPS Larger. In my system, this was the most musical sub setup I have ever had. I made the mistake of letting that go and getting two subs that were custom built that had plate amps and no DSP. Yeah, it's good but it is definitely one of those "seller remorse" stories you hear of from time to time in this hobby.

Well, I am now in the position to go back to the tried and true.......or.........actually look at other options. I have heard some subs that get rave reviews and when I get my ears on them, they are "boomy", slow, sloppy, as far from "musical" as one could get or you could detect exactly where they were in the room and while they "enhanced" the rig they were in, they didn't exactly round out the lowest of octaves in a realistic way that blended well with the mains. My biggest gripe are those subs that utilize woofers that travel upwards of two inches or more. Gawd awful lower reproductive effort IMO/IME. The subs that have impressed me the most are those in which the woofer barely moves but will move your jeans on a good drum kick when you stand close enough to the sub. I know there are words to describe each type of driver but those descriptions escape me at the moment.

Does anybody have a suggestion for a musical, fast and accurate subwoofer or subwoofer setup? If you do and you have experience with what you are thinking about, I sure would like to know so that I can possibly check the options out. The VMPS/Hefty amp/SMS-1 combo to date was the most musically integrated subwoofer setup I have heard but I'd like to explore other options that I may not know about.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I look forward to reading any experiences you may have had that you are willing to share that may fit my criteria.

Tom

The most articulate bass I have ever heard comes from my Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush’s massive bass towers. I recently augmented the speed and articulation of the Adrenaline Rush bass towers with a pair of Wilson Audio WAMM Series VIIA subwoofer towers which has brought about a new level of subterranean bass that manifest itself in additional ambiance information recovery and further delineates ambient cues and high frequency detail.

I am also quite impressed with my Verity Audio Rocco subwoofer in my dedicated home theater room. Since the system in use in my home theater room is definitely more high-end audio than home theater oriented, I use the system primarily for listening to music and to watch live DVD and Blu-Ray concerts and I’m impressed with the speed and musicality of the Verity Audio Rocco subwoofer when tasked with musical duties. It also delivers the boom and bombastic blasts when watching movies when called upon. The Verity Audio Rocco is so musically refined that it delegated my pair of Mach-1 Acoustics subwoofers to use in a different system.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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#94
The best subs i have heard are the Martin Logan Statement E2 sub-towers i use in my setup. The consist of 8 pairs of 12 inch drivers in a “balanced force” setup, acting as dipols. With the right crossover setting and amps they blend amazingly well with other fast drivers. I have never tried them with conventional speakers, only with electrostats and omnis.
Active subwoofer towers that integrate well with panels (or horns) Perfect... Milan that’s the best test for subs. I’m also planning trying out some dipole pairs of subs in isobaric coupling and also just as single 3 per side in a folded baffle as well.

It will be my new year project straight after I develop some antivirals for Angry Posting Audio Dude Syndrome (APADS) :eek: ... I now aim to be self medicating and working on developing herd immunity for 2021 lol.
 

treitz3

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Dec 25, 2011
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#95
Hello all and good evening to you.

I ended up getting 2 Rythmik F-25's that both sit on Target stands that place the height of the center of the sub right at tweeter height. They both flank the mains to the outside and somewhat behind the mains. These were just what the doctor ordered and are highly recommended. Absolutely no boom or override (exaggeration) of the lowest of octaves and they will do Yosi Horikawa's Intro and bump off of his Vapor album flawlessly, even at extreme SPL's.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

This combo works extremely well with the rest of my rig and when dialed in correctly, really does bring the reproductive effort into not just noise emanating from a left and right speaker but a performance you experience right before you, as if you are there. They do not have any of the deficiencies that I have heard on many subs throughout the years and they are as tight as a gnat's posterior.

My apologies for not following up on the purchase and thanks for pointing me in the right direction. These subs have helped make my system what I had always yearned for. The combo is also much better than the VMPS Larger withe DPS (Velodyne SMS-1) and a stout amp. They are simply, very accurate, very musical subs that do not flinch even under extreme demands.

Tom
 

Lagonda

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Feb 4, 2014
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#96
Active subwoofer towers that integrate well with panels (or horns) Perfect... Milan that’s the best test for subs. I’m also planning trying out some dipole pairs of subs in isobaric coupling and also just as single 3 per side in a folded baffle as well.

It will be my new year project straight after I develop some antivirals for Angry Posting Audio Dude Syndrome (APADS) :eek: ... I now aim to be self medicating and working on developing herd immunity for 2021 lol.
As long as you don’t accidentally develop the cure for Humorous Audio Dude Syndrome ( HADS ), the line between cure and accelerant seems to be only one bottle ;)
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
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#97
As long as you don’t accidentally develop the cure for Humorous Audio Dude Syndrome ( HADS ), the line between cure and accelerant seems to be only one bottle ;)
Lol and who could stop at just one bottle when the music is so darn good :eek: am currently off my APADS and my other meds as well o_O:oops:
 
May 30, 2010
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#98
The best subs i have heard are the Martin Logan Statement E2 sub-towers i use in my setup. The consist of 8 pairs of 12 inch drivers in a “balanced force” setup, acting as dipoles.. With the right crossover setting and amps they blend amazingly well with other fast drivers.They are equally good at placing a helicopter or earthquake in your listening room in movie mode, as play delicate foundation when Ray Brown or Rob Wassermann strut their stuff. I have never tried them with conventional speakers, only with electrostats and omnis.
Just a small detail - are "balanced force" units operated out of phase? I though they were bipolar, but not dipoles. Dipole subs usually need strong equalization and have limited maximum sound pressure.
 

Lagonda

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#99
Just a small detail - are "balanced force" units operated out of phase? I though they were bipolar, but not dipoles. Dipole subs usually need strong equalization and have limited maximum sound pressure.
I honestly don’t know Francisco, they might be bipolar, it would explain why they are so hard to set up ;) A good strong amp seems to be excellent medicine though.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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I felt that putting on the balanced force subs ruined the tone of the CLX. I checked with an owner (Harlequin, who doesn't frequent the forum anymore) and he felt the same.
 

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