What is the point of tube preamps/amps that don't sound like tubes?

[knghifi]

I am shopping for a tube preamp. Some interesting thoughts popped into my noggin.

What is the point of purchasing and running tube preamps, or integrated/power amps that don't sound tubey?

If there is no signature tube sound why not just go solid state and get the benefit of no heat and zero maintenance?

Buy a tube preamp with many tube rolling options, e88cc/6922, 6sn7 ..., so you can tailor the sound to your taste.

I have a VAC SigMKIIa that uses 2 e88cc/6922. Currently rolling 60's Siemens e88cc and the sound is neutral, transparent, dynamic ... If I want a warmer sound, roll some Mullards, Mazda ... I avoid tube preamps with limited tube rolling options. What's the point having a tube pre if you can't roll tubes

The best property of tube preamplifiers is avoiding the sound signature of solid state preamplifiers ...

I have the feeling that tube preampfliers represent better value for money in terms of sound quality - e.g. you can get two ARC REF5Se for the price of a DartZeel NH18. I have also found that tube preamplifiers are less critical of matching - usually solid state preamplifers ask to be connected to amplifiers of the same brand. Just MHO.

Actually I find matching tube pre is more critical especially to SS amp. If a tube preamp cannot drive (low output impedance) an amp properly, sound is limited on both ends, lifeless, flat ...

 

[Andre Marc]

Buy a tube preamp with many tube rolling options, e88cc/6922, 6sn7 ..., so you can tailor the sound to your taste.

I have a VAC SigMKIIa that uses 2 e88cc/6922. Currently rolling 60's Siemens e88cc and the sound is neutral, transparent, dynamic ... If I want a warmer sound, roll some Mullards, Mazda ... I avoid tube preamps with limited tube rolling options. What's the point having a tube pre if you can't roll tubes


Actually I find matching tube pre is more critical especially to SS amp. If a tube preamp cannot drive (low output impedance) an amp properly, sound is limited on both ends, lifeless, flat ...

Excellent note on tube rolling. An other wise neutral, difficult to distinguish from SS preamp can be fine tuned.

 

[Andre Marc]

Not sure this applies to only VTL and Atma-Sphere, because I think it does apply to tubes in general. IME, tube amps/preamps are able to portray the sound of harmonics ( like you said) and the sustain of instruments better than ss. I also think that the dimensionality of the stage is re-created with greater precision and more apparent depth than ss. I believe when we listen to a real instrument in a live setting, our brains are accustomed to hearing the way the instrument 'connects' to the space that it is playing in. For example, we can all fairly easily recognize a piano when we hear it playing 'live'. We pretty much know when we hear a piano reproduced at home that something is not quite there...question is what is that something??? To many of us, the something is hard to pin down, but we all know it when we hear it. i believe that tube gear recreates that illusion slightly better than ss gear. I also think the reason for this is that tube gear is generally..."warmer" than ss gear, and IMHO 'warmth' is a definite part of what the human brain expects to hear. I would suggest that we do indeed hear the warmth of instruments ( the better ones that is) when we listen live.

Actually I am not really asking what are the advantages of tubes in general, I know them well. I was asking the advantage of a tube preamp that is very difficult to distinguish, if at all, from a SS unit..where the tube(s) have very little if any influence. A review that comes to mind was Fremer's write up on the Ypislon pre that can be used in passive or tube mode, and he had to strain, with effort, to hear a difference.

 

[Andre Marc]

Backert Labs. It is a new model. For whatever reason, they submitted a post for a contest. Name the new pre, and win one. From there the talk of a demo began. Whether it happens or not is still undecided.

View attachment 22495

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/169394/3k-preamp-giveaway/p1


Thank you. I like it.

Well guess what I have been following that on AudioCircle. Threw my hat in the ring! It may be marketing,
but I like their design philosophy.

 

[Gregadd]

So what "advantages" of tubes do the VTL and Atma-Sphere units give you?

- click above for full view -
Tube Driver Stage
One of the reason tubes are best for voltage amplification is they’re natural high-voltage devices that act in a linear fashiom
Moscode.ciom
Justo name one.
The problem with tube amps is not the tube it is the transformer..

I

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not sure this applies to only VTL and Atma-Sphere, because I think it does apply to tubes in general. IME, tube amps/preamps are able to portray the sound of harmonics ( like you said) and the sustain of instruments better than ss. I also think that the dimensionality of the stage is re-created with greater precision and more apparent depth than ss. I believe when we listen to a real instrument in a live setting, our brains are accustomed to hearing the way the instrument 'connects' to the space that it is playing in. For example, we can all fairly easily recognize a piano when we hear it playing 'live'. We pretty much know when we hear a piano reproduced at home that something is not quite there...question is what is that something??? To many of us, the something is hard to pin down, but we all know it when we hear it. i believe that tube gear recreates that illusion slightly better than ss gear. I also think the reason for this is that tube gear is generally..."warmer" than ss gear, and IMHO 'warmth' is a definite part of what the human brain expects to hear. I would suggest that we do indeed hear the warmth of instruments ( the better ones that is) when we listen live.

I think this is very well-stated, and, to my ears, correct.

 

[DaveyF]

Actually I am not really asking what are the advantages of tubes in general, I know them well. I was asking the advantage of a tube preamp that is very difficult to distinguish, if at all, from a SS unit..where the tube(s) have very little if any influence. A review that comes to mind was Fremer's write up on the Ypislon pre that can be used in passive or tube mode, and he had to strain, with effort, to hear a difference.

Got it. Not sure if there would be any difference between ss and tubes if they are both able to portray the same things, and therefore no advantage. ( unless the price was considerably different). If that was the case, I would lean towards the ss preamp. The fact is that with a tube preamp, or any tube gear for that matter, one is always somewhere on the tube life cycle. This does not apply to ss. There basically is no variability in what you hear from the ss piece, you get what you get. OTOH, due to numerous variables, eg. tube life, tube type, heat propagation, tube quality...one can 'tailor' the sound somewhat. I know with my CAT preamp, the sound is quite different with rolled-in NOS tubes than what comes from the factory as stock.
Problem is that as we both know, most tube preamps are more 'able' in the areas already mentioned...and who wants to give up on that.

 

[microstrip]

Very interesting. Basically a ss integrated with a passive input stage.

With a special passive input stage, with qualities and limitations. Let us go on quoting cj :

"By contrast, the CA200 circuits incorporate top quality parts (metal foil resistors, polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors, machined gold-plated connectors, etc.) to fully realize the dramatic potential of a control amplifier to enhance the immediacy of musical experience afforded by fine recordings. As a result, the CA200 is notable for its resolution of subtle dynamic shadings and palpable imaging, for a natural harmonic tonality, and extraordinary resolution"

What is missing, even with great parts? IMHO, the scale, fluidity and liveness that great preamplifiers can give to a system. That special sensation of feeling the air existing around performers and feeling the boundaries of the room.

My experience with passives is mainly with the Audio Synthesis Passion, using Vishay metal foil resistors, WBT connectors and a very high quality commutator, that curiously I am using today to listen to an ARC CD8 with a DartZeel power amplifier.

 

[knghifi]

Actually I am not really asking what are the advantages of tubes in general, I know them well. I was asking the advantage of a tube preamp that is very difficult to distinguish, if at all, from a SS unit..where the tube(s) have very little if any influence. A review that comes to mind was Fremer's write up on the Ypislon pre that can be used in passive or tube mode, and he had to strain, with effort, to hear a difference.

Whether you hear a difference between passive vs active is system dependent. Source output level, interconnect type and amp input impedance. IE: If amp has low input impedance, it will be easily distinguishable.

 

[sly30]

I tested many tube preamps. Many years ago i thought so that maybe the best option would be to have tube pre + SS monoblocks. Idea is nice but real life is brutal. Most tube preamps has to big distortions and not stable frequency range. Some day visited me friend with profi measuring system of acoustic, speaker and audio systems. He shows me problems in my acoustic and unexpectedly problems somewhere in my system. Some ranges was to high, some to low, some canceled. We tried to find where in system is problem and... it was tube preamp!! Next we connected SS preamp and whole frequency range was like straight line.Perfect and no distortions. Next years i tested some more tube amps and was the same. Most of them was very noisy. Today i think that preamp is the heart of system, maybe the most important in system and it must be clear, not any noise, no distortions, full range with no any canceled freq. I'm sure that most owners of tube preamps has no consciousness what tube preamps are doing with music informations. I don't know what the future brings but for now no any tube pramps. Only SS and of course only high class. Some SS preamps are not enough musical, but on market there are some great SS preamps.

 

[Andre Marc]

Whether you hear a difference between passive vs active is system dependent. Source output level, interconnect type and amp input impedance. IE: If amp has low input impedance, it will be easily distinguishable.

I guarantee you 95% if all cables and components fall within "normal" ranges on all specs.

TVC's also eliminate the need for system matching in most ways.

 

[Andre Marc]

With a special passive input stage, with qualities and limitations. Let us go on quoting cj :

"By contrast, the CA200 circuits incorporate top quality parts (metal foil resistors, polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors, machined gold-plated connectors, etc.) to fully realize the dramatic potential of a control amplifier to enhance the immediacy of musical experience afforded by fine recordings. As a result, the CA200 is notable for its resolution of subtle dynamic shadings and palpable imaging, for a natural harmonic tonality, and extraordinary resolution"

What is missing, even with great parts? IMHO, the scale, fluidity and liveness that great preamplifiers can give to a system. That special sensation of feeling the air existing around performers and feeling the boundaries of the room.

My experience with passives is mainly with the Audio Synthesis Passion, using Vishay metal foil resistors, WBT connectors and a very high quality commutator, that curiously I am using today to listen to an ARC CD8 with a DartZeel power amplifier.

Well you may be one of the few, like me, that like both passive and active. I find that most people are in one camp or the other.

It is without question an active preamp can ONLY be additive. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

 

[microstrip]

Well you may be one of the few, like me, that like both passive and active. I find that most people are in one camp or the other.

It is without question an active preamp can ONLY be additive. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

I should have referred that this was a temporary system for background music while measuring/checking the tubes of my ARC REF40 preamplifier ... My preference goes towards the tube active preamplifier.

 

[Andre Marc]

I should have referred that this was a temporary system for background music while measuring/checking the tubes of my ARC REF40 preamplifier ... My preference goes towards the tube active preamplifier.

Aha! Got it. I would take the Music First passive over any active SS pre. But it is now almost $8,000-$10,000!

For tube pre, the Manley Classic 300B is the most gorgeous unit I have heard to date..on my list at $6100.

 

[microstrip]

Whether you hear a difference between passive vs active is system dependent. Source output level, interconnect type and amp input impedance. IE: If amp has low input impedance, it will be easily distinguishable.

Most of the time you will use some attenuation in the passive, typically around 12 - 18 dB. This means that the preamplifier will see as load the sum of the series resistor of the attenuator added to the input impedance of the amplifier and the second resistor of the attenuator. IMHO only exceptionally this will be the real reason for the difference between active and passive.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, but what about tube preamps that are hard to pick as "tube" preamps. Speaking of ARC, I think ARC has been moving towards a dead neutral, solid state type sound for the past decade.

The very existence of such pre amps sort of discounts the "sound signature of solid state," doesn't it?

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

The very existence of such pre amps sort of discounts the "sound signature of solid state," doesn't it?

Tim

Not really..."Dead nuetral" was a polite way of saying sterile...which many ss preamps are, at all ends of the pricing spectrum.

 

[Bill Hart]

Andre- I think these are all shorthand labels to try to quickly describe the sound. A few others have noted that tube preamps in recent years sound far less "tubular" and that's a good thing in my estimation. I don't know what piece Fremer was referring to, but my suspicion is, he may have been underscoring that the piece did not have old school tube euphonics. My old line stage, a Lamm L2 was very fleshed out, rich in harmonics but was a solid state unit (with a massive tube power supply). So that's almost a case of a solid state unit sounding like tubes. When I sent it for service, I bought a used, highly regarded line stage to use as a stop gap for a month- I had forgotten what old school tubes sounded like- glorious, but the midrange was more of a 'blob' without all the nuances of the Lamm.
My current line stage is tube but doesn't sound like the Lamm at all, or the interim unit I used-very full bandwidth, prodigious taut bass, extremely good at articulating the details without sounding clinical. I guess in the parlance you are talking about, it is a tube preamp tending toward solid state in those respects, but it doesn't have the the fine-grained, white-ish sound I often associate (perhaps unfairly) with solid state electronics, or any bright, hyper analytical qualities. I think as much as tube gear has improved, so has the solid state stuff. But, they all sound different, and I think it is harder than ever to categorize the sound based on whether it is tube or solid state.

 

[XV-1]

I have never heard a tube pre amp that has sounded like a SS preamp

Tube pre amps I have owned are vtl 7.5, Cary 98p, arc refuse, cj prem 16, cj ART'S, CA GAT.

None of these tube amps have sounded like SS preamp.

I rely would like some specific examples he is thinking of.

 

[LL21]

I have never heard a tube pre amp that has sounded like a SS preamp

Tube pre amps I have owned are vtl 7.5, Cary 98p, arc refuse, cj prem 16, cj ART'S, CA GAT.

None of these tube amps have sounded like SS preamp.

I rely would like some specific examples he is thinking of.

Hang on...since when did you get Townsend Supertweeters for your Maxx3s? What is the story there? Sorry to derail, but you and I have spoken for years about SF treble, Wilson treble, my changing out my old tweeters to effectively the latest focal Ti based on/same as the Maxx 3s. What gives with the Townsend Supertweeters? What do they do and why did you get them? Most curious.