What preamp have I not tried?

[MadFloyd]

Can't be sure it's not the cable (Siltech Paris) which the dealer apologetically said would not be ideal, but I'm getting very little bass out of the GAT/ART combo - it's rather anemic. I thought the upper mids were sublime and that there was nice extension on top, but it drove my wife out of the room when horns played. My hunch is that the ARTs cannot drive the Sashas but again I can't be sure.

 

[LL21]

Can't be sure it's not the cable (Siltech Paris) which the dealer apologetically said would not be ideal, but I'm getting very little bass out of the GAT/ART combo - it's rather anemic. I thought the upper mids were sublime and that there was nice extension on top, but it drove my wife out of the room when horns played. My hunch is that the ARTs cannot drive the Sashas but again I can't be sure.

Wow...i would not have expected behemoth bass, but i would have expected something quite powerful. 275 watts of CJ mono tubed power should be quite a lot...this is not their first high-powered tube mono amp. the legendary Premier 8s (also 250-275 watts) are over 20 years old.

I am also still surprised about the horns. The GAT was far quieter, more detailed and more extended than the Shindo but equally mellifluous in mids and highs (with far better bass). If you know anything of Shindo by reputation, that should give you an idea that no one should be running out of the room on horns. hmmm...

 

[MadFloyd]

Wow...i would not have expected behemoth bass, but i would have expected something quite powerful. 275 watts of CJ mono tubed power should be quite a lot...this is not their first high-powered tube mono amp. the legendary Premier 8s (also 250-275 watts) are over 20 years old.

I am also still surprised about the horns. The GAT was far quieter, more detailed and more extended than the Shindo but equally mellifluous in mids and highs (with far better bass). If you know anything of Shindo by reputation, that should give you an idea that no one should be running out of the room on horns. hmmm...

I think the horns sounded great myself; she might have been reacting to the imbalance (lack of bass) with high volume. I also thought texture on strings was wonderful. I had a bit of upper midrange glare with the GAT/Lamm combo but with the GAT/ART it was smoother imo. I don't want to give anyone the impression that the CJ stuff is bright or harsh. I think the problem is just the bottom end.

 

[LL21]

The ART amps are a return to the older cj amps that were relatively insensitive (cj did this in part to lower the amp's noise floor). My old LP140Ms were 0.5 V for full range; the ART is 1.8 V. But I wouldn't worry about the GAT at 50 as there is always a sweet spot on the volume control (that's as long as you don't have noise issues).

Another thing is that the amps take 30-60 mins to warm up and until then, will sound somewhat dynamically compressed -- and most of all, missing that sense of space around instruments and in the hall. As the amps warm up, all of a sudden, these things start to appear.

But the amps insensitivity resulted in my going to a phono stage with higher gain so that dynamics weren't compromised (right now that's the Doshi with 72 dB of gain). Then of course, the speaker's sensitivity will enter into the equation.

Interestingly, with the Gryphon Colosseum, i can get up to 85db (depending on the recording) around 21-28 on the CJ GAT volume. I think Gryphon is 31db gain. On music, 50 would easily deafen me and probably cause lawsuits with the rest of the apartment building. On Action flicks, i tend to turn it to 40-45 to get to same volume levels since they seem to be at much softer levels...and will crank to 50 for fun. And that's the limit.

 

[LL21]

I think the horns sounded great myself; she might have been reacting to the imbalance (lack of bass) with high volume. I also thought texture on strings was wonderful. I had a bit of upper midrange glare with the GAT/Lamm combo but with the GAT/ART it was smoother imo. I don't want to give anyone the impression that the CJ stuff is bright or harsh. I think the problem is just the bottom end.

Are you using KT120s or the 6550s in the ART? Just curious...i've never spent real time with 6550 and am not sure if i've ever heard the KT120. But i have read KT120 bass is quite good.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Can't be sure it's not the cable (Siltech Paris) which the dealer apologetically said would not be ideal, but I'm getting very little bass out of the GAT/ART combo - it's rather anemic. I thought the upper mids were sublime and that there was nice extension on top, but it drove my wife out of the room when horns played. My hunch is that the ARTs cannot drive the Sashas but again I can't be sure.

If the ARTs can drive the ML Summit-Xs, it can drive the Sashas.

Also the cj amps never had trouble driving the W/P. When I had the 5.1, everyone commented on the bass.

 

[Bill Hart]

The Sasha is supposed to be a much tougher load than the earlier WATT and even the big Wilsons. I wonder if other Sasha owners here have thoughts or have any experience using them with the ART amps.

 

[Bill Hart]

If the ARTs can drive the ML Summit-Xs, it can drive the Sashas.

We posted at the same time, i was wondering that, Myles, I know electrostats can run the gamut on impedance but I can't remember what the woofer set up is on yours- active?

 

[microstrip]

Are you sure that the ARTs are wired internally for 4 ohm? I suggest you contact the factory - they have large experience with Wilson speakers.

I could drive the Wilson 5.1 and 7's perfectly with a cj MV125, and although I have never listened to the ART, had some experience with a pair of Premier 8, that seem very similar to the ARTs in power. They could drive almost anything, even the very difficult and insensitive top Avalons.

In my experience with cj and Wislon speakers I found that Transparent Reference cables were a must.

 

[MylesBAstor]

We posted at the same time, i was wondering that, Myles, I know electrostats can run the gamut on impedance but I can't remember what the woofer set up is on yours- active?

It's self powered but like the old Infinities, you can certainly get an idea of what the amp is doing in the bass eg. change the amps, and the bass can get better or worse (probably in part the slope of the xover).

Also the 90 watt Doshi tube amps sounded marvelous in the bass on the Sashas at RMAF.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Are you sure that the ARTs are wired internally for 4 ohm? I suggest you contact the factory - they have large experience with Wilson speakers.

I could drive the Wilson 5.1 and 7's perfectly with a cj MV125, and although I have never listened to the ART, had some experience with a pair of Premier 8, that seem very similar to the ARTs in power. They could drive almost anything, even the very difficult and insensitive top Avalons.

In my experience with cj and Wislon speakers I found that Transparent Reference cables were a must.

Good points. I though have found more cables work with the cj gear such as MIT, Kubala-Sosna too. In fact, the MIT were superlative in the low end. Didn't have much luck with the AQ cables though.

 

[LL21]

Are you sure that the ARTs are wired internally for 4 ohm? I suggest you contact the factory - they have large experience with Wilson speakers.

...In my experience with cj and Wislon speakers I found that Transparent Reference cables were a must.

Agree. I have been running CJ-Transparent for 7 years now without any desire to change, and now with Wilson as well. CJ have had Wilson speakers in their listening rooms for years going back to the original X1/Grand Slamm in 1994.

 

[LL21]

Are you sure that the ARTs are wired internally for 4 ohm? I suggest you contact the factory - they have large experience with Wilson speakers.

I could drive the Wilson 5.1 and 7's perfectly with a cj MV125, and although I have never listened to the ART, had some experience with a pair of Premier 8, that seem very similar to the ARTs in power. They could drive almost anything, even the very difficult and insensitive top Avalons.

In my experience with cj and Wislon speakers I found that Transparent Reference cables were a must.

Website seems to suggest that it is wired for 4ohms...i believe that Premier 8s were the same and LP275? And the latest spec seems to show KT120s as well.

 

[1rsw]

We're a trip, audiophiles that is. I've been following this thread and talking with Madfloyd offline for a year about this stuff. I have the answer, I know the solution to all of his audio problems, I'm sure of it. Funny thing is so do many other's and all of those solutions are different! This has got to be incredibly confusing! The good thing is he's bringing home gear and figuring it out the proper way. In the bigger picture, it's exciting stuff and he is very lucky to be able to experience all of this fantastic gear. Thats what it's all about, man. Enjoy the hell out of the process and enjoy the hell out of the music.

Now, once your done screwing around you can do as I tell you so you can end up with proper sound He and I have some similar gear, at least DAC, USB converter and speakers. My feeling is that his issues would be greatly diminished if he went to upper tier MIT cables ie Oracle MA-X ic's, Matrix 90 rev1 speaker or better yet SHD120. I further suggest moving to Spectral electronics, 360 Series 2 or better yet the new DMA 400 when they come out. I use 360 Series 2 amps, Oracle MA-X ic's and SHD120 speaker cables. I don't think there are many systems out there that come can come close to sounding like mine. There, I said it. Ha!! But again, thats the thing. Many of you guys feel exactly the same and our gear could not be more different! But....clearly I am right so Madfloyd please go do as I say and get this thing fixed post haste!

 

[Bill Hart]

We're a trip, audiophiles that is. I've been following this thread and talking with Madfloyd offline for a year about this stuff. I have the answer, I know the solution to all of his audio problems, I'm sure of it. Funny thing is so do many other's and all of those solutions are different! This has got to be incredibly confusing! The good thing is he's bringing home gear and figuring it out the proper way. In the bigger picture, it's exciting stuff and he is very lucky to be able to experience all of this fantastic gear. Thats what it's all about, man. Enjoy the hell out of the process and enjoy the hell out of the music.

Now, once your done screwing around you can do as I tell you so you can end up with proper sound He and I have some similar gear, at least DAC, USB converter and speakers. My feeling is that his issues would be greatly diminished if he went to upper tier MIT cables ie Oracle MA-X ic's, Matrix 90 rev1 speaker or better yet SHD120. I further suggest moving to Spectral electronics, 360 Series 2 or better yet the new DMA 400 when they come out. I use 360 Series 2 amps, Oracle MA-X ic's and SHD120 speaker cables. I don't think there are many systems out there that come can come close to sounding like mine. There, I said it. Ha!! But again, thats the thing. Many of you guys feel exactly the same and our gear could not be more different! But....clearly I am right so Madfloyd please go do as I say and get this thing fixed post haste!

You forgot changing the wall sockets too......

 

[1rsw]

You forgot changing the wall sockets too......

Argh! Thanks so much for reminding me!! Please install Oyaide R-1's to further correct your problems. This is important. Told you I could fix it!

 

[MadFloyd]

We're a trip, audiophiles that is. I've been following this thread and talking with Madfloyd offline for a year about this stuff. I have the answer, I know the solution to all of his audio problems, I'm sure of it. Funny thing is so do many other's and all of those solutions are different! This has got to be incredibly confusing! The good thing is he's bringing home gear and figuring it out the proper way. In the bigger picture, it's exciting stuff and he is very lucky to be able to experience all of this fantastic gear. Thats what it's all about, man. Enjoy the hell out of the process and enjoy the hell out of the music.

Now, once your done screwing around you can do as I tell you so you can end up with proper sound He and I have some similar gear, at least DAC, USB converter and speakers. My feeling is that his issues would be greatly diminished if he went to upper tier MIT cables ie Oracle MA-X ic's, Matrix 90 rev1 speaker or better yet SHD120. I further suggest moving to Spectral electronics, 360 Series 2 or better yet the new DMA 400 when they come out. I use 360 Series 2 amps, Oracle MA-X ic's and SHD120 speaker cables. I don't think there are many systems out there that come can come close to sounding like mine. There, I said it. Ha!! But again, thats the thing. Many of you guys feel exactly the same and our gear could not be more different! But....clearly I am right so Madfloyd please go do as I say and get this thing fixed post haste!

If I already had MIT I would try Spectral in a heartbeat.

In a neat twist of irony, while I was searching high and low for adapters to see if I could make my PAD cables work with the GAT/ART combo, my wife arrived home and said "Have you seen these two packages at the front door?". They were Transparent Ref XL cables. Of course they were all XLR cables (apart from the speaker cables) and tuned to my regular pre/amp (Pass XP-10, Lamm M1.2 Ref) so they weren't going to be any help with the CJ gear. I didn't realize they had even been shipped.

So by 9pm I bailed on the CJ stuff, restored my old pre & amp and replaced all the cabling to start burning it in (these are loaners for me to audition but appear to be brand spanking new from the factory). Listening this morning I have to say that these are very good cables. Bass and highs are better than my PAD although midrange isn't as lush.

Regarding the lack of bass on the CJ stuff, what I found interesting is that the bass was more anemic on some material than others - i.e. it was frequency dependent. The Sashas dip to 1.8ohm @80 or 90 hz (or a wider range if you read John Atkinson's measurements) and I think this has to be the culprit. Previous versions of Wilson speakers are much easier to drive (in fact when I was originally interested in Lamm amps both Lamm and Wilson advised me to stay away from the tubed Lamm amps unless I was going with Watt Puppy 8 or earlier - that the Sasha required the hybrid models).

 

[PeterA]

Having heard many iterations of Madfloyd's system, I doubt he would like the Spectral/Wilson combination. He keeps trying tubes. But, 1rsw, you make a good point about how subjective this all is. He is learning first hand about some awfully good gear. I suppose he could try an all Spectral combination with his MIT and Sashas. Personally, I think it has as much to do with room and system setup as it does with equipment. Presence, dynamics and tone can all be changed with a shifting of listener and speaker positions.

 

[Bill Hart]

Having heard many iterations of Madfloyd's system, I doubt he would like the Spectral/Wilson combination. He keeps trying tubes. But, 1rsw, you make a good point about how subjective this all is. He is learning first hand about some awfully good gear. I suppose he could try an all Spectral combination with his MIT and Sashas. Personally, I think it has as much to do with room and system setup as it does with equipment. Presence, dynamics and tone can all be changed with a shifting of listener and speaker positions.

I'd plus 1 that. Changing amp, you can't assume the speaker placement should remain where it was.

 

[PeterA]

I'm mistaken. I had thought Madfloyd had MIT cables, but he has PAD and now Transparent.