What preamp have I not tried?

[JackD201]

Hi Floyd,

Do let us know how things go By the way, I tried the V-ray II as well but going straight into the wall, well floor in my case , was definitely more dynamic. I used the V-ray and V-Ray II for everything else for a long time but recently switched to the Nordost QB8 for my sources and preamplification. The sound didn't change much at all but it did fix my hum problem.

 

[LL21]

I spent the weekend at Paragon Sight & Sound demoing different equipment. Boy what a treat that was...loved Nick Doshi's electronics. My system sounded very dark compared to pretty much everything I heard there...all Wilson products...Dan D'agostino's Momentums and some ARC products...not a fan of the latter).

Interesting observation...some reviews of Lamm will note this darkness (never in a negative way, as much as a comment on the sound presentation). I do wonder what would happen if you left your system as is (including using Lamm preamp and VRay)...and switched amps. D'Agostino Momentum Stereo?

 

[MadFloyd]

Been using Nick's phono section as my reference for a while now He's also coming out with a couple of new amps; maybe he'll have them their at RMAF. His gear sounded great last year at RMAF with the Sashas.

Oh and Nick can configure the phono section as a tape preamp too. Think Bruce ordered it for his studio IIRC. Not sure they've come yet though.

I was told the new amps would be at RMAF. I am really looking forward to hearing these as they will be more powerful than the current model.

 

[MadFloyd]

Interesting observation...some reviews of Lamm will note this darkness (never in a negative way, as much as a comment on the sound presentation). I do wonder what would happen if you left your system as is (including using Lamm preamp and VRay)...and switched amps. D'Agostino Momentum Stereo?

Regarding the Momentum, it's one of the reasons I traveled to Paragon (I live in Boston area). I have a whole 'report' that I intend to post here (just to share what a positive experience it was - had such a great weekend), but I'm very confused about the Momentum. Heard it on Saturday driving Sashas/Maxx3's/XLF's, but because of a mix of other electronics, including a Ref 5 SE etc I couldn't tell what the amp was bringing to the table. I suspect it was very neutral because I was hearing the 'ARC' sound coming through (and I'm not a fan) but I gave up on the notion that I was auditioning the amp and concentrated on the differences between speakers. However, the next day we were listening (in another room) to Doshi pre & monos driving Sashas and loved what we heard and I asked to hear the Momentum (stereo) instead of the Doshi monos. There was more extension in the bass, but everything else was uninspiring. Soundstage was flat, upper midrange was receded and thin, no body or texture to speak of. It left us flat and missing the Doshi. In short, it just sounded like a very average SS amp even though I know this thing has to be very good (I know of at least 3 individuals who moved from my amps to the monoblock Momentums). I can't say that I've heard much in the way of SS amps lately other than Pass Labs and my Lamms (although they are hybrids). I might have to get it here to audition for longer than 15 minutes because I must be missing something.

 

[LL21]

I have not heard Doshi...but i have heard Shindo which is often compared with Doshi. I thought the Shindo was tremendous...Massetto. When you listen to Clapton...it was captivating, gripping in a way such that the whole room goes quiet while 'he plays'. Captivating to the extreme, and the Massetto is not even the highest level...i was originally looking for Giscours or Petrus, but they did not have them, so they brought over the Massetto.

interestingly, when i went back to the ACT2 (my preamp at the time)...i realized (particularly on orhcestral strings) that the Shindo midrange was 'gently edged forward' in the most subtle of ways...such that Clapton's voice became that much more fulsome...along with strings, etc. The minor problem was that on orchestral, it seemed too much so...but on jazz vocals it was magic. Pure magic.

The Momentums are about effortless and pure transparency, performance, dynamics...and a touch of sweetness in the treble, mids but otherwise probably focusing on flat delivery. Coming on the heels of listening to the Doshi...i can imagine how it felt to 'flatten out'...a bit lifeless. In the end, its all about the mix. Me? I [think] I have tried to keep the life/magic bit in my source, and then tried to keep components natural, effortless and transparent...(erring if anywhere on the side of warm but generally good pure tonality).

I could imagine the Momentums being magic in the right system...probably with Zanden, Metronome Kalista Ref front end, and CJ pre.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have not heard Doshi...but i have heard Shindo which is often compared with Doshi. I thought the Shindo was tremendous...Massetto. When you listen to Clapton...it was captivating, gripping in a way such that the whole room goes quiet while 'he plays'. Captivating to the extreme, and the Massetto is not even the highest level...i was originally looking for Giscours or Petrus, but they did not have them, so they brought over the Massetto.

interestingly, when i went back to the ACT2 (my preamp at the time)...i realized (particularly on orhcestral strings) that the Shindo midrange was 'gently edged forward' in the most subtle of ways...such that Clapton's voice became that much more fulsome...along with strings, etc. The minor problem was that on orchestral, it seemed too much so...but on jazz vocals it was magic. Pure magic.

The Momentums are about effortless and pure transparency, performance, dynamics...and a touch of sweetness in the treble, mids but otherwise probably focusing on flat delivery. Coming on the heels of listening to the Doshi...i can imagine how it felt to 'flatten out'...a bit lifeless. In the end, its all about the mix. Me? I [think] I have tried to keep the life/magic bit in my source, and then tried to keep components natural, effortless and transparent...(erring if anywhere on the side of warm but generally good pure tonality).

I could imagine the Momentums being magic in the right system...probably with Zanden, Metronome Kalista Ref front end, and CJ pre.

Or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts! That's why checklist reviews often miss the mark.

 

[Bill Hart]

Or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts! That's why checklist reviews often miss the mark.

The dreaded 'S' word, and I so agree. Wouldn't a 'shoot-out' be a lot more meaningful if a magazine or webzine did a comparison of say, a full-on Shindo or Dart or whatever system of electronics, all the way through, with the appropriate speakers? Given that we are talking not insignificant sums here, and trying to sort his out piecemeal is, as Floyd,Myles, and Lloyd recognize, almost pointless, that would be a much more interesting review. Shindo of course have a 'complete' system, including power cords, transformer, preferred table, arm, cartridge, speakers, the works. Few others come to mind that offer a 'complete system' approach although I would assume Wilsons are one benchmark speaker for alot of electronics manufacturers.

 

[LL21]

The dreaded 'S' word, and I so agree. Wouldn't a 'shoot-out' be a lot more meaningful if a magazine or webzine did a comparison of say, a full-on Shindo or Dart or whatever system of electronics, all the way through, with the appropriate speakers? Given that we are talking not insignificant sums here, and trying to sort his out piecemeal is, as Floyd,Myles, and Lloyd recognize, almost pointless, that would be a much more interesting review. Shindo of course have a 'complete' system, including power cords, transformer, preferred table, arm, cartridge, speakers, the works. Few others come to mind that offer a 'complete system' approach although I would assume Wilsons are one benchmark speaker for alot of electronics manufacturers.

Hi Whart,

Tough call actually. OTOH, i would love to hear a full-on all-Gryphon vs all-FMA or all-Shindo vs all-CJ vs all-Kondo shoot-out. OTOH, in the end, no matter what permutation a review tries...even if he reviews 5 permutations...the reality is...there are virtually infinte permutations. Each of our rooms is different, our systems, our choices of music, our ears, our tastes.

I think i totally hear where you are coming from...that itty bitty piece meal review is tough to learn from. But in end, i guess i learn the most from a review when:

a. the reviewer uses the unit in a system i know something about
b. the reviewer compares the unit to units i know something about
c. the reviewer uses the unit in different configurations...at least to see if there are some obvious issues in terms of impedance mismatching problems, etc.

From that point onward, its really up to me to hear it for myself.

 

[Bill Hart]

Hi Whart,

Tough call actually. OTOH, i would love to hear a full-on all-Gryphon vs all-FMA or all-Shindo vs all-CJ vs all-Kondo shoot-out. OTOH, in the end, no matter what permutation a review tries...even if he reviews 5 permutations...the reality is...there are virtually infinte permutations. Each of our rooms is different, our systems, our choices of music, our ears, our tastes.

I think i totally hear where you are coming from...that itty bitty piece meal review is tough to learn from. But in end, i guess i learn the most from a review when:

a. the reviewer uses the unit in a system i know something about
b. the reviewer compares the unit to units i know something about
c. the reviewer uses the unit in different configurations...at least to see if there are some obvious issues in terms of impedance mismatching problems, etc.

From that point onward, its really up to me to hear it for myself.

Lloyd, I'm not suggesting this to glean what any individual component can do. If a manufacturer (let's use an example other than Shindo, because in a sense, they are easy, they say 'just buy our complete system') says use our phono, line stage and X amp, have a group of reviewers compare the full ARC, or Gryphon or Lamm or pick your flavor electronics with a speaker in common that each manufacturer says will enable a fair representation. I would assume there is a speaker that all of them can agree will work well to fairly represent their product. Then, let the chips fall where they may. I know this means 'buying into' the 'same manufacturer' synergy, but if a particular system then falls short in some way, what's the complaint?
It was all brand X. Granted, that doesn't tell Floyd which line stage to buy, but it is more informative than discreet reviews of a single component in isolation. I got my latest e-version of Stereophile today, and I guess since they didn't have much to publish after a busy summer of shows and reviews, they did one of their useless Recommended Component lists. Total waste of e-paper in my estimation.
And you are right, the room is always a huge variable, but let's say it's a good sized room, the manufacturer's representatives can be there to do set up, room treatment as necessary, preferred cabling,whatever. It's pretty much as ideal as any situation short of a purpose built room for a specific set-up, which is the exception for most people anyway. And, have a panel of listeners, who can each write concurring or dissenting opinions. There might even be a majority consensus, but it almost doesn't matter because you would be reading a group of reviews done at the same time of an 'ideal' system from each manufacturer in the best circumstance under review.

 

[LL21]

Whart,

Agree..it would be good to hear this kind of a shoot-out...it would require a lot of commitment from reviewers and manufacturers. Because it is a true brand review in many respects...not just a component. I admit...i do like individual component reviews...providing either a) i know the system its being used in, and/or b) the reviewer compares the unit to 1 or 2 other components i know...then i feel like i have gleaned something i can use to filter all the new products (and old second-hand products) out there.

For me personally, i like the mix of components i have...maybe i have missed out on manufacturer synergy...wouldnt doubt it. But i do feel like i've got a combination of strengths that works for me. And those individual component reviews has helped me get there.

 

[Bill Hart]

Whart,

Agree..it would be good to hear this kind of a shoot-out...it would require a lot of commitment from reviewers and manufacturers. Because it is a true brand review in many respects...not just a component. I admit...i do like individual component reviews...providing either a) i know the system its being used in, and/or b) the reviewer compares the unit to 1 or 2 other components i know...then i feel like i have gleaned something i can use to filter all the new products (and old second-hand products) out there.

For me personally, i like the mix of components i have...maybe i have missed out on manufacturer synergy...wouldnt doubt it. But i do feel like i've got a combination of strengths that works for me. And those individual component reviews has helped me get there.

Yes, I understand and agree, but unless you really can duplicate what the reviewer has, and the set-up, room, cabling, etc., it is only a glimpse; perhaps enough to be telling, and you will still have to make your own judgment in your system. But, it would be interesting to have a real shoot out among 'best of breed'- without the variables that you mentioned almost always come into play. And the 'panel'- well, they still aren't your ears, but it's almost like a jury- you have no idea how they get there, but somehow, they reach a result. Here, you'd have their reactions, biases, reasoning and they'd have the opportunity to take issue with one another's findings. Granted, it is a huge undertaking, but it would sell a hell of alot of issues. I'd even buy one. (Magazine, that is).

 

[LL21]

Yes, I understand and agree, but unless you really can duplicate what the reviewer has, and the set-up, room, cabling, etc., it is only a glimpse; perhaps enough to be telling, and you will still have to make your own judgment in your system. But, it would be interesting to have a real shoot out among 'best of breed'- without the variables that you mentioned almost always come into play. And the 'panel'- well, they still aren't your ears, but it's almost like a jury- you have no idea how they get there, but somehow, they reach a result. Here, you'd have their reactions, biases, reasoning and they'd have the opportunity to take issue with one another's findings. Granted, it is a huge undertaking, but it would sell a hell of alot of issues. I'd even buy one. (Magazine, that is).

Agree on all, Whart. These kinds of true, detailed and intensive reviews or shoot-outs are rare...i really wish they would do it. I actually asked Marc Michelson to do a shoot out between ARC Anniversary Pre/ARC Ref 250 or 750 and the CJ GAT/CJ ART...he said if he could review the CJ GAT/ART...he would at least do a comparison within the review.

I remember the hoopla when a German magazine did a shoot-out with the same electronics of X2 Alexandria 1, TAD R1, SF Strad, Audio Physic ref, Thiel CS7 and a couple others...the manufacturer came to set up his own speaker...and they all used the same electronics...Pass Labs i think.

 

[Musica Bella]

Hello Madfloyd. Where are you located? (Country and/or State)

 

[MadFloyd]

Hello Madfloyd. Where are you located? (Country and/or State)

Massachusetts.

 

[rtilden]

MadFloyd: Reading through these threads, I think I understand what you are looking for. I feel that I have achieved that type of sound with my current system, which uses a Purity Audio Designs preamp and CODA 15.0 amplifier feeding Tyler Woodmere speakers. Using only (2) 12AU7 tubes, the Purity Audio preamp allows a vast array of sonic flavor options. I have tried a number of different NOS tubes, and I can say that my current combination delivers dynamics, speed, air, natural timbre, richness, tremendous imaging and overall breathtaking presentation (basically everything). Let me know if I can offer any more details about my setup, room, etc. This is a very serious preamp.

 

[Bill Hart]

MadFloyd: Reading through these threads, I think I understand what you are looking for. I feel that I have achieved that type of sound with my current system, which uses a Purity Audio Designs preamp and CODA 15.0 amplifier feeding Tyler Woodmere speakers. Using only (2) 12AU7 tubes, the Purity Audio preamp allows a vast array of sonic flavor options. I have tried a number of different NOS tubes, and I can say that my current combination delivers dynamics, speed, air, natural timbre, richness, tremendous imaging and overall breathtaking presentation (basically everything). Let me know if I can offer any more details about my setup, room, etc. This is a very serious preamp.

RTilden: I recognize your name from the 'Gon.

 

[rtilden]

Hey, whart. Yep, one and the same. Over the last year, I have completely upgraded my system. I don't do much posting, as I wanted my system to settle down into something that I am very happy with... luckily, that has happened. My weakness in many of these threads is that I have not done many A/B comparisons between competing components, which leaves me with little to offer. But I am exceedingly happy with my current rig and am happy to offer opinions of lessons learned along the way. One day soon I hope to post photos of the room and rig. The room is much more exciting to view than the components, whose presence I try to minimize. I think I have updated my components listing if anyone wishes to view it.

 

[trponhunter]

best pre amp by a wide margin - none

 

[AudioExplorations]

best pre amp by a wide margin - none

+1

 

[Bill Hart]

best pre amp by a wide margin - none

I'll get the attribution for this little nugget, but it is so apt: "In theory, theory and practice should be the same. In practice, they aren't."