What should be my next cart and tonearm?

[bonzo75]

I don’t know what listening to classical music has to do with natural sound. We all have natural sound experience when we listen to everything around us and instruments and voices. Tang is very open minded about audio. Didn’t David teach you about analog when you visited him the first time? We’ve all learned a lot from the guy.

I learned a lot from most of my visits. The good ones and the bad ones. But you two seem to think defending 3012r with Lyra compatibility is the ultimate offering to the only teacher. You could have moved on two days ago.

 

[tima]

Now you're making stuff up in your head Bad day at work? I had nothing to say about Lyra except it's compliance spec relative to effective mass. You made more of that than what I wrote, bringing in Tang's opinion to talk about sound. Now let's drop it.

 

[PeterA]

I learned a lot from most of my visits. The good ones and the bad ones. But you two seem to think defending 3012r with Lyra compatibility is the ultimate offering to the only teacher. You could have moved on two days ago.

That’s very funny, Bonzo, but I know you didn’t mean it that way. I find posts much more effective if they are not so personal.

 

[Argonaut]

Now you're making stuff up in your head Bad day at work? I had nothing to say about Lyra except it's compliance spec relative to effective mass. You made more of that than what I wrote, bringing in Tang's opinion to talk about sound. Now let's drop it.

You appear incapable of construing or recognising that the Tango references that Kedar is making are all much later than the cut n paste reference that you offered up as the ‘Word Of Tango’ As for “ Now lets drop it “ Perhaps you shouldn’t have started it !

 

[Argonaut]

Here is Tang's one quote for those that are not tribal sheep but actually understand natural sound, not just because someone has told them 3012r produces natural sound

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-colibri-%E2%80%9Cmaster-signature%E2%80%9D.26233/post-553608

"The Lyra (AtlasSL) Gian, Bonzo and I find most dynamic and energetic in our systems with the SAEC 506. I found AtlasSL sounded less Atlas-like when on 3012R."

Honestly I can't believe I am spending time against the two of you defending this resonating piece of metallic shite and its compatibility with one cart.

Did Tango hold onto his Cessaro’s Kedar ? He seemed quite happy with them , and made a handful of pretty good audio vids as I recall.

 

[tima]

Was there a squeak?
I thought I heard a squeak.

 

[bonzo75]

That’s very funny, Bonzo, but I know you didn’t mean it that way. I find posts much more effective if they are not so personal.

Your post which was personal started it, so read again. I held myself back

 

[Ron Resnick]

The other factor when we have different subjective opinions is that not everyone has the same goal. Tang told me his music listening experience goal is a natural sound presentation and this may well explain why Bonzo and Tang had very different opinions of the Atlas SL/3012 R combination in Tang’s system.

Are you really back to [maybe Kedar likes unnatural sound]?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well, less Atlas-like might not be a bad thing. it’s all about synergy between arm and cartridge.

I believe the 3012R has a very slight smoothing effect on moving coil cartridges, which is why I personally like the 3012R.

It also sounds, excellent with the Opus 1.

I also like the ZYX UNIverse Premium on the 3012R.

[3012R] holds its own in very expensive, famous modern tone arm company, and some even prefer it. Impressive.

I agree with this.

 

[bonzo75]

I believe the 3012R has a very slight smoothing effect on moving coil cartridges, which is why I personally like the 3012R.



I also like the ZYX UNIverse Premium on the 3012R.

The Zyx sounds good on 3012r and on many other arms.

The effect on Lyra wasn’t smoothing, it was suffocating dynamics. And not really making it any natural for those who like or don’t like Lyra

 

[bonzo75]

Are you really back to [maybe Kedar likes unnatural sound]?

He is right given his first natural sound definition that natural sound is the use of Lamm, Ching cheng and 3012r

 

[Argonaut]

I would add Vitavox CN-191.

 

[abeidrov]

He is right given his first natural sound definition that natural sound is the use of Lamm, Ching cheng and 3012r

What is wrong with Lamm? I thought you liked tubes)

 

[bonzo75]

What is wrong with Lamm? I thought you liked tubes)

Nothing is wrong, there are many tubes, and many SET amps.

 

[abeidrov]

I’ve come across this article: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/
It was a bit of a shock to me, that performance of my Opus 1 cart can start to deteriorate after only 500 hours of use. And after 1000 hours it may damage the records!?
Below is the extract from the above article:
“The table below shows conservative stylus life by stylus tip shape and a range of stated life from a multitude of sources. The “Hours of Play” column on the left is derived from research performed by Jico and presented by SoundSmith (see www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information). Apparently, according to JICO, the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its original specified level of distortion (~3.0%) at 15kHza is as follows:


Stylus Shape Hours of Playa Stated Life (hrs), Othersb

Spherical/Conical 150 300 – 800

Elliptical 250 500 – 1,000

Shibata/Line Contact 400 500 – 3,000

Micro-Ridge 500 ±4,000

a JICO research as published by SoundSmith (ibid.).

b Estimates from numerous audio forum and company webpages, all without technical support.”

Am I correct to assume that Opus 1’s semi-line contact stylus falls into Shibata/Line Contact category?
500 hours with an average of 6 records per week will give you about 2 and a half years of use. So, you spend more than 10K on a new cart, and it will last just 2 or 3 years?
Now, instead of buying a new cart I should probably spend money to inspect and re-tip my Opus
Do you guys have any experience evaluating Opus1 or other MSL carts for wear and re-tipping them? How much will it cost to re-tip an Opus 1 cart and where it can be done?

 

[bonzo75]

I’ve come across this article: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/
It was a bit of a shock to me, that performance of my Opus 1 cart can start to deteriorate after only 500 hours of use. And after 1000 hours it may damage the records!?
Below is the extract from the above article:
“The table below shows conservative stylus life by stylus tip shape and a range of stated life from a multitude of sources. The “Hours of Play” column on the left is derived from research performed by Jico and presented by SoundSmith (see www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information). Apparently, according to JICO, the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its original specified level of distortion (~3.0%) at 15kHza is as follows:

Stylus Shape Hours of Playa Stated Life (hrs), Othersb

Spherical/Conical 150 300 – 800

Elliptical 250 500 – 1,000

Shibata/Line Contact 400 500 – 3,000

Micro-Ridge 500 ±4,000

a JICO research as published by SoundSmith (ibid.).

b Estimates from numerous audio forum and company webpages, all without technical support.”

Am I correct to assume that Opus 1 semi-line contact stylus falls into Shibata/Line Contact category?
500 hours with an average of 6 records per week will give you about 2 and a half years of use. So, you spend more than 10K on a new cart, and it will last just 2 or 3 years?
Now, instead of buying a new cart I should probably spend money to inspect and re-tip my Opus
Do you guys have any experience evaluating Opus1 or other MSL carts for wear and re-tipping them? How much will it cost to re-tip an Opus 1 cart and where it can be done?

I have said this before many times. Avoid carts which have a very high rebuild cost, like Zyx, Lyra, or Koetsu (irrespective of sound). Vdh, Dava and Top wing have low retip costs. Fans will say the costlier ones are building you a new cart, but still, that price will be as high as you would get a new in box cart discounted from a dealer. Just another way to take money from those thinking they are getting the best. Never checked what airtight rebuild/retip cost is

 

[tima]

I’ve come across this article: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/
It was a bit of a shock to me, that performance of my Opus 1 cart can start to deteriorate after only 500 hours of use. And after 1000 hours it may damage the records!?
Below is the extract from the above article:
“The table below shows conservative stylus life by stylus tip shape and a range of stated life from a multitude of sources. The “Hours of Play” column on the left is derived from research performed by Jico and presented by SoundSmith (see www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information). Apparently, according to JICO, the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its original specified level of distortion (~3.0%) at 15kHza is as follows:


Stylus Shape Hours of Playa Stated Life (hrs), Othersb

Spherical/Conical 150 300 – 800

Elliptical 250 500 – 1,000

Shibata/Line Contact 400 500 – 3,000

Micro-Ridge 500 ±4,000

a JICO research as published by SoundSmith (ibid.).

b Estimates from numerous audio forum and company webpages, all without technical support.”

Am I correct to assume that Opus 1 semi-line contact stylus falls into Shibata/Line Contact category?
500 hours with an average of 6 records per week will give you about 2 and a half years of use. So, you spend more than 10K on a new cart, and it will last just 2 or 3 years?
Now, instead of buying a new cart I should probably spend money to inspect and re-tip my Opus
Do you guys have any experience evaluating Opus1 or other MSL carts for wear and re-tipping them? How much will it cost to re-tip an Opus 1 cart and where it can be done?

I know the guy (Mike Bodell) who wrote the article published at the Vinyl Press and read it in draft. He put a ton of work into it and I know of no reason to dispute his findings.

One thing to add is the importance of keeping the stylus clean, which can help extend its life. I check mine before every play -- just part of my routine, it only takes a minute or two. It is not surprising to find something on the stylus but it really helps to keep your records clean.

I use a loupe on a stand to check with a bright light beneath the cartridge - you need enough magnification (at least 10X, higher is better) to see the stylus clearly and low magnification will not reveal all that may be there. 80% of the time all that's needs be done is to brush the stylus gently. I use a 00 size sable artist brush. For recalcitrant crud I use a small bit of white Mr. Clean Magic Eraser on a toothpick to dip (not brush) the stylus while holding a small magnifier. There are nay-sayers but it works like a charm and I have never had a problem with it.

 

[tima]

I have said this before many times. Avoid carts which have a very high rebuild cost, like Zyx, Lyra, or Koetsu (irrespective of sound). Vdh, Dava and Top wing have low retip costs. Fans will say the costlier ones are building you a new cart, but still, that price will be as high as you would get a new in box cart discounted from a dealer. Just another way to take money from those thinking they are getting the best. Never checked what airtight rebuild/retip cost is

While 5 figure cartridges can be nice, there are brands in the $5-$9k that can be very satisfying. (Actually could be lower cost, but I haven't had one lately.)

 

[abeidrov]

Tima

I know the guy (Mike Bodell) who wrote the article published at the Vinyl Press and read it in draft. He put a ton of work into it and I know of no reason to dispute his findings.

One thing to add is the importance of keeping the stylus clean, which can help extend its life. I check mine before every play -- just part of my routine, it only takes a minute or two. It is not surprising to find something on the stylus but it really helps to keep your records clean.

I use a loupe on a stand to check with a bright light beneath the cartridge - you need enough magnification (at least 10X, higher is better) to see the stylus clearly and low magnification will not reveal all that may be there. 80% of the time all that's needs be done is to brush the stylus gently. I use a 00 size sable artist brush. For recalcitrant crud I use a small bit of white Mr. Clean Magic Eraser on a toothpick to dip (not brush) the stylus while holding a small magnifier. There are nay-sayers but it works like a charm and I have never had a problem with it.

View attachment 131778

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Tima, even if you keep your stylus spotless, aren’t you worried, that it may damage your records after just several years of use? How often do you change or re-tip your carts?

Thanks,
Aziz

 

[tima]

Tima

Tima, even if you keep your stylus spotless, aren’t you worried, that it may damage your records after just several years of use? How often do you change or re-tip your carts?

Thanks,
Aziz

Hi Aziz - I"m more aware than worried. I try not to get to that point.

I have several cartridges (listed under my system link) and rotate through them ... maybe make a change every 4-6 months. I will buy a new cartridge maybe every 2 years, but the hard part is finding the right cartridge for me -- I found my last one through review. Now that my tonearm universe has expanded with the 3012R there should be more opportunities. I have never re-tipped a cartridge.