What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.

[tima]

In Japan the rooms are even smaller and yet they kind of kept the horn flame alive by buying up all those old JBL and Altec studio and movie speakers. They ultimately care more about sound than space...

Tut tut. Do you think many Japanese audiophiles intentionally live in smaller spaces to afford more expensive audio gear since they "ultimately care more about sound than space"?

Its pretty safe to stipulate the vast majority of audiophiles across the world care about sound. We may find several who would like more space.

I don't know the distribution of horns vs other approaches in the east. Do you know?

I've been thinking horns generally like more space yet they seem more in favor in regions where there is less space. (Of course there is the notion that one is more likely to use the products of one's region, though that may be somewhat diminished in this century.) Then there's supply and demand. With fewer horn speakers suppliers in certain regions I presume part of that comes from lower demand. Why is it lower and why is it greater in the regions it is?

 

[bonzo75]

Yes - I've known Caelin for 15+ years and he does have a nice room now. Do you think the devore orangutans are the right speaker for full symphonics?

It depends on how you listen. I compared the devore to a 25k and a 65k Lansche in the same room. Lansche are very good speakers. When you play on such speakers you get me more weight and stage on the first record. It then repeats record after record. With devore the stage and presentation changes with each record so I get a more realistic concert feel on each. Devores respond better to lower wattage SETs so you get more purity and speed and nuance.

Caelin is using multiple amps and is loving the bass. Art Dudley loved the way John Bonham's drum thwacks were sounding on his devores. I heard it do a reference recording rimsky korsakov in another room with an 845 and it was much better than a bigger trenner and friedl RA. In another room it was much better than the Cessaro Wagner on all fronts.

But are there speakers which can do full symphony better? Of course, just as there the Sasha is not, devore is not an ultimate speaker. It is a very good speaker when you are constrained either by room size or budget or both.

You could also try to get something like a TAD Pioneer exclusive 2401 instead, a small two way sensitive speaker. And if you like that try bigger variants of it from Rey audio

 

[bonzo75]

Tut tut. Do you think many Japanese audiophiles intentionally live in smaller spaces to afford more expensive audio gear since they "ultimately care more about sound than space"?

Its pretty safe to stipulate the vast majority of audiophiles across the world care about sound. We may find several who would like more space.

I don't know the distribution of horns vs other approaches in the east. Do you know?

I've been thinking horns generally like more space yet they seem more in favor in regions where there is less space. (Of course there is the notion that one is more likely to use the products of one's region, though that may be somewhat diminished in this century.) Then there's supply and demand. With fewer horn speakers suppliers in certain regions I presume part of that comes from lower demand. Why is it lower and why is it greater in the regions it is?

I don't think the audio market is efficient and has proper demand supply characteristics. Altec and western electric and JBL and TAD are all from the US. In fact Altec morphed to JBL which morphed to TAD.

 

[bonzo75]

Big cones also need space. Small cones sometimes don't. It is just that people keep upgrading and 95 percent of them end up with big cones too big for their room. The fact that the get used to the boom and driver mismatch is a different thing

 

[tima]

I don't think the audio market is efficient and has proper demand supply characteristics. Altec and western electric and JBL and TAD are all from the US. In fact Altec morphed to JBL which morphed to TAD.

To my knowledge WE, JBL, TAD and Altec don't make horn speakers nowadays - one might say only TAD makes an audiophile speaker. Maybe the audio market is not efficient, but these companies, except maybe TAD, aren't what they used to be. One might conjecture the demand, at some point, was no longer there - though they had some great products in their day. Were horns driven out of America by amplifier manufacturers? Ever since I had Atma-Spheres I have been dissapointed in the trend toward lower and lower nominal impedance.

 

[morricab]

Tut tut. Do you think many Japanese audiophiles intentionally live in smaller spaces to afford more expensive audio gear since they "ultimately care more about sound than space"?

Its pretty safe to stipulate the vast majority of audiophiles across the world care about sound. We may find several who would like more space.

I don't know the distribution of horns vs other approaches in the east. Do you know?

I've been thinking horns generally like more space yet they seem more in favor in regions where there is less space. (Of course there is the notion that one is more likely to use the products of one's region, though that may be somewhat diminished in this century.) Then there's supply and demand. With fewer horn speakers suppliers in certain regions I presume part of that comes from lower demand. Why is it lower and why is it greater in the regions it is?

Sorry tima, I in no way implied anything about the intent of Japanese and the size of the spaces in which they live. I simply stated the fact that they are often living in smaller spaces and the fact that a lot of Japanese audiophiles seem to love old American horn speakers...and yes this does imply that they at least think the sound of these speakers is an overriding consideration as they will definitely not have a high WAF. It's not an either/or situation but a get it despite having a limited space situation. I think this speaks a lot about dedication to what they consider a priority.

I am not convinced by "The vast majority of audiophiles care about sound" anymore. Too many other factors go into buying decisions that are not sound quality related.

Well, JBL still manufactures (at least in part) in the US...at least it is a US company and they do make horns...or at least speakers where only the bass is conventional, which are for studio and live sound. Again, outside pro sound, for home not much loved in the US but popular in Asia and to some degree in Europe.

 

[KeithR]

Well, JBL still manufactures (at least in part) in the US...at least it is a US company and they do make horns...or at least speakers where only the bass is conventional, which are for studio and live sound.

Not anymore - Northridge, CA shuttered production years ago. Made in Mexico now.

 

[tima]

I think we're talking around one another here. I was curious about regional differences in speaker topology and why that appears to be the case.

am not convinced by "The vast majority of audiophiles care about sound" anymore. Too many other factors go into buying decisions that are not sound quality related.

Sure several factors go into buying decisions, but isn't there a sense where caring about sound is a key market of being an audiophile?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am not convinced by "The vast majority of audiophiles care about sound" anymore. Too many other factors go into buying decisions that are not sound quality related. (...)

At less most of those I know about do care. Surely many have preferences different from mine, but most are driven by the desire of owning an high quality system able to play music in a way they can enjoy.

However, many audiophiles will also understand that this is an illusionary hobby, and that other aspects such as the social aspects, owner pride and knowledge about sound reproduction can also be relevant in enjoying stereo sound reproduction.

 

[morricab]

Not anymore - Northridge, CA shuttered production years ago. Made in Mexico now.

Sad...

 

[morricab]

I think we're talking around one another here. I was curious about regional differences in speaker topology and why that appears to be the case.



Sure several factors go into buying decisions, but isn't there a sense where caring about sound is a key market of being an audiophile?

No , you “tut tuted” me with some silly admonishment about Japanese wanting to live in smaller apartments to afford the gift of their dreams...a rather absurd supposition!

For very few it is about the pursuit of any sense of absolute sound. Shoehorning in huge horn type speakers in a tiny apartment requires dedication to what you think will give the best sound even if it looks absurd (believe it or not most audiophiles think about this as important...or their wife does). I know I got those looks when I put HUGE electrostats in a quite small room. A lot of “knowledgeable “ audiophiles and dealers who saw this smirked and said “oh this can’t work because of X, Y or Z. Then I played and the smirk ran away from their face and the jaw dropped. Never mistake being serious for the appearance of being serious...

 

[tima]

For very few it is about the pursuit of any sense of absolute sound. Shoehorning in huge horn type speakers in a tiny apartment requires dedication to what you think will give the best sound even if it looks absurd (believe it or not most audiophiles think about this as important...or their wife does). I know I got those looks when I put HUGE electrostats in a quite small room. A lot of “knowledgeable “ audiophiles and dealers who saw this smirked and said “oh this can’t work because of X, Y or Z. Then I played and the smirk ran away from their face and the jaw dropped. Never mistake being serious for the appearance of being serious...

Okay.

 

[morricab]

At less most of those I know about do care. Surely many have preferences different from mine, but most are driven by the desire of owning an high quality system able to play music in a way they can enjoy.

However, many audiophiles will also understand that this is an illusionary hobby, and that other aspects such as the social aspects, owner pride and knowledge about sound reproduction can also be relevant in enjoying stereo sound reproduction.

Yes, they care about having "high quality" system...they probably would be caught dead with old JBL speakers even if they sounded much better. You yourself are the owner of a virtual "who's who" of the high end audio world...did you buy the biggest names because they sound the best or did they catch you with their looks and their advertising??

Let's see: Wilson, DCS, VTL (in the past), Lamm (in the past),Techdas, ARC, Conrad Johnson, Transparent Audio, Nordost etc. You have just happened to buy some of the biggest advertisers and heavily reviewed gear...maybe it really sounds the best or maybe ultimate sound quality is not your only goal...

 

[microstrip]

Yes, they care about having "high quality" system...they probably would be caught dead with old JBL speakers even if they sounded much better. You yourself are the owner of a virtual "who's who" of the high end audio world...did you buy the biggest names because they sound the best or did they catch you with their looks and their advertising??

Let's see: Wilson, DCS, VTL (in the past), Lamm (in the past),Techdas, ARC, Conrad Johnson, Transparent Audio, Nordost etc. You have just happened to buy some of the biggest advertisers and heavily reviewed gear...maybe it really sounds the best or maybe ultimate sound quality is not your only goal...

Surely because they sounded great and have been providing me with great musical enjoyment, but also with great entertainment in the hobby during long years.

Heavily reviewed material can be a good thing - it carries a lot of public scrutinity and sometimes accurate measurements and true technical data. Availability, reliability and service are also important aspects for me - I own systems that must operate anytime I want to listen to music. I have little patience , when I want something in the high-end I want it for next week in my current listening room, not for next year in a future system. And yes, I consider that reviewing is now-a-days mostly an way of advertising.

IMHO in an hobby where references are very personnel, the words "ultimate sound quality" or "best " applied to individual equipment are not supposed to be used as weapons against other people preferences. I have tried a lot more equipment than I refer, too much perhaps, I mainly list my positive experiences. The old XXX speakers entered and left without great words ...

Again IMHO listening to music with high-end equipment is not a race. But when we compare opinions I like to do it in clear objectively described conditions, in such conditions we can learn a lot.

BTW, it is not ( in the past) and it is not all of them - the signature usually shows what I am mainly listening at that specific time, although sometimes I fail to keep it actual.

 

[KeithR]

i believe there are cultural sonic preferences around the world. hence the British sound, Japanese sound, Western sound, etc. i don't think Japanese audiophiles liking vintage JBLs or horns means anything specifically.

 

[bonzo75]

If you go to other sites like audio karma and audio asylum and DIY audio, lot of horn exposure and leadership from the US.

 

[morricab]

i believe there are cultural sonic preferences around the world. hence the British sound, Japanese sound, Western sound, etc. i don't think Japanese audiophiles liking vintage JBLs or horns means anything specifically.

Well actually Keith we are talking about American designed and American made speakers, originally designed to entertain Americans. Due to audio rag bias and advertising they were rejected in America as “unsophisticated “ designs and not audiophile worthy. The fact that many thousands of these domestically unloved speakers found their way into cramped Japanese apartments, when they would have been much more at home in large US houses is very telling of priorities when it comes to hifi, regardless of what you personally think of those speakers’ sound. They buy them ONLY for the sound (and yes many of the models sound more convincing than home hifi speakers). They also work with better sounding SET amplification (something else the Japanese preserved and basically reintroduced to the hifi world...because they realized it sounds better).

 

[morricab]

Surely because they sounded great and have been providing me with great musical enjoyment, but also with great entertainment in the hobby during long years.

Heavily reviewed material can be a good thing - it carries a lot of public scrutinity and sometimes accurate measurements and true technical data. Availability, reliability and service are also important aspects for me - I own systems that must operate anytime I want to listen to music. I have little patience , when I want something in the high-end I want it for next week in my current listening room, not for next year in a future system. And yes, I consider that reviewing is now-a-days mostly an way of advertising.

IMHO in an hobby where references are very personnel, the words "ultimate sound quality" or "best " applied to individual equipment are not supposed to be used as weapons against other people preferences. I have tried a lot more equipment than I refer, too much perhaps, I mainly list my positive experiences. The old XXX speakers entered and left without great words ...

Again IMHO listening to music with high-end equipment is not a race. But when we compare opinions I like to do it in clear objectively described conditions, in such conditions we can learn a lot.

BTW, it is not ( in the past) and it is not all of them - the signature usually shows what I am mainly listening at that specific time, although sometimes I fail to keep it actual.

I think you are on the wrong forum. You should be on the “Well I think it sounds ok to me!” Forum, or WITISOTMF!

At least you admit it isn’t only about SQ...although I think you forgot to mention resale value .

Reviewing is primarily advertising...at least how most reviewers approach it...not much real criticism going on...

I think you should keep reading reviews as you are definitely making the advertisers happy.

 

[bonzo75]

Well actually Keith we are talking about American designed and American made speakers, originally designed to entertain Americans. Due to audio rag bias and advertising they were rejected in America as “unsophisticated “ designs and not audiophile worthy. The fact that many thousands of these domestically unloved speakers found their way into cramped Japanese apartments, when they would have been much more at home in large US houses is very telling of priorities when it comes to hifi, regardless of what you personally think of those speakers’ sound. They buy them ONLY for the sound (and yes many of the models sound more convincing than home hifi speakers). They also work with better sounding SET amplification (something else the Japanese preserved and basically reintroduced to the hifi world...because they realized it sounds better).

Well they marketed sugared water and burger to the World. Kellogg spent years in India trying to get people to change their eating habits. There is a case study where in one country they spent 27 years before declaring victory. So to get people who do not do research or have proper ingrained listening habits to these fancy brands is child's play. Just make it a status symbol with a price tag and, like Coke, seen everywhere (every hifi show, mag, etc)

 

[Folsom]

Well actually Keith we are talking about American designed and American made speakers, originally designed to entertain Americans. Due to audio rag bias and advertising they were rejected in America as “unsophisticated “ designs and not audiophile worthy. The fact that many thousands of these domestically unloved speakers found their way into cramped Japanese apartments, when they would have been much more at home in large US houses is very telling of priorities when it comes to hifi, regardless of what you personally think of those speakers’ sound. They buy them ONLY for the sound (and yes many of the models sound more convincing than home hifi speakers). They also work with better sounding SET amplification (something else the Japanese preserved and basically reintroduced to the hifi world...because they realized it sounds better).

While there is a grain of truth (a big one), I honestly think you’re strongly overlooking Japanese habits and culture. They appreciate finely made things, stuff that has ancient wisdom feelings attached to it matters. They don’t trust every new thing on the block. But at the same time if you don’t think aesthetics drive any of their choices, well, you’ve never lived with a Japanese person. Aesthetics can often trump everything else. And you can’t be surprised by it, it’s deeply rooted for them.

It would be a mistake to think everyone who’s Japanese has a stereo everyone would love if they could get past their biases. We simply see more of the glorified systems online.