What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.

[tima]

If you go to other sites like audio karma and audio asylum and DIY audio, lot of horn exposure and leadership from the US.

We know you like to ordain winners and losers and talk about your current favorites while poking at products not etched on your scroll of the month. It's easy without commitment And that's all fine and can be good entertainment - it's not a flaw and I'm not attacking you for it.

But asking about why regional differences are what they are is not an attack on people's choices or horns generally - though ideologies can run deep and some inevitably see it that way and become defensive. Maybe it's not always about winners and losers - though on almost all audio forums there are those who feel the need to view their hobby in those terms.

If it helps, consider the question as: why do audiophiles make the choices that they do? In the US certain speaker topologies sell far more than others. I don't know if more horns are sold in the UK/Europe or in Asia than other topologies - nobody answered that question. Are audiophile buyers simply led like bo-peeps by manufacturers? Many of us go through a process of discovery across our audiophile life. Or are manufacturers led by the market of what sells? Personally I doubt I'd buy expensive speakers from a small manufacturer on another continent - maybe others share that. Surely price is a consideration, but that's not a regional preference - it's true everywhere. I asked if space could be a consideration, given that seems to be somewhat of a regional difference. Folsom mentioned cultural aesthetics. Are there other factors that come into play? Why do we see the (admittedly rough) distribution of differences that we do.

 

[bonzo75]

I have said this often here. Audio is not an efficient market with proper demand supply curves and all the players knowing all the public information. Nor is it regulated. A market should either be regulated, or if you think govt. regulations are more harm than good, then it should be efficient enough to be regulated by the market forces. Here it is neither.

This is a guilty hobby. People who are (mostly) old and with less time to do research as they have priorities with families, jobs, etc, keep looking over their shoulder distracted by the gear they want to buy. Tang in one of his early posts on this forum announced that he would rather take his so to Disneyland than go evaluate hifi systems elsewhere. This is true for many. Yet, others don't have the budget to get home all the gear like an extremely short number of people on this site do to do their research, and even those guys are just skimming.

So an overdependency on people like dealers and manufacturers who spend day to day involved in gear and set ups. But then they have what they can sell, by cost plus method, not market value method.

Many buyers are not on forums. The ones here are the small percent of the OCDed ones who landed here googling and got addicted. Looking at forums posts and connecting yourself to someone who is polite and has similar gear as the one you have or are researching, is a very balanced and objective way to do research.

At the end of the day, like Colgate, many here buy just what they buy but come to the forum and justify it on sonic grounds (Ps: Many buy colgate because they always bought it, but if you ask them, they might say for fresh breath or cavity control or whatever). Similarly many buy a gear because they are locked in by trade in, there is a deal on hifi shark, or some such reason. But then their system jumps up by enough levels to for the next few months till they itch to again spend.

Regarding forums/countries and cultural differences. Forums like martin logan, the older apogee board, Lansing Heritage (Altec, TAD, JBL) pulled a lot of people dedicated to those spreakers away from the more non-dedicated ones like this one. France has one of the biggest horn comunities but they chat in French on their forum, not in English on ours. This reduces exposure to people on such forums to certain pieces of gear. I think there is enough TAD, JBL, Altec, Tannoy, Goto, in the US that we don't see here. boards like Audioasylum were full of these guys till around ten years ago, it's a less active forum now. This itself shows to me how exposure works, how people on a particular forum might be led by the general trend at that forum, as they themselves do not go out to listen much, and when they do, it is to meet people on that forum. This forum had a lot to do with Wilson and Techdas. If you go to the same country's forum on Audionirvana, you will see it is heavily on LPs and Tape. Digital chat is pretty low. UK forums - one was high sensitivity and more on Audionote and Kondo which everyone considered sacred.

 

[morricab]

While there is a grain of truth (a big one), I honestly think you’re strongly overlooking Japanese habits and culture. They appreciate finely made things, stuff that has ancient wisdom feelings attached to it matters. They don’t trust every new thing on the block. But at the same time if you don’t think aesthetics drive any of their choices, well, you’ve never lived with a Japanese person. Aesthetics can often trump everything else. And you can’t be surprised by it, it’s deeply rooted for them.

It would be a mistake to think everyone who’s Japanese has a stereo everyone would love if they could get past their biases. We simply see more of the glorified systems online.

I was only referring to loudspeakers...not the entire Japanese culture.

 

[tima]

I have said this often here. Audio is not an efficient market with proper demand supply curves and all the players knowing all the public information. Nor is it regulated. A market should either be regulated, or if you think govt. regulations are more harm than good, then it should be efficient enough to be regulated by the market forces. Here it is neither.

This is a guilty hobby. People who are (mostly) old and with less time to do research as they have priorities with families, jobs, etc, keep looking over their shoulder distracted by the gear they want to buy. Tang in one of his early posts on this forum announced that he would rather take his so to Disneyland than go evaluate hifi systems elsewhere. This is true for many. Yet, others don't have the budget to get home all the gear like an extremely short number of people on this site do to do their research, and even those guys are just skimming.

So an overdependency on people like dealers and manufacturers who spend day to day involved in gear and set ups. But then they have what they can sell, by cost plus method, not market value method.

Many buyers are not on forums. The ones here are the small percent of the OCDed ones who landed here googling and got addicted. Looking at forums posts and connecting yourself to someone who is polite and has similar gear as the one you have or are researching, is a very balanced and objective way to do research.

At the end of the day, like Colgate, many here buy just what they buy but come to the forum and justify it on sonic grounds (Ps: Many buy colgate because they always bought it, but if you ask them, they might say for fresh breath or cavity control or whatever). Similarly many buy a gear because they are locked in by trade in, there is a deal on hifi shark, or some such reason. But then their system jumps up by enough levels to for the next few months till they itch to again spend.

Regarding forums/countries and cultural differences. Forums like martin logan, the older apogee board, Lansing Heritage (Altec, TAD, JBL) pulled a lot of people dedicated to those spreakers away from the more non-dedicated ones like this one. France has one of the biggest horn comunities but they chat in French on their forum, not in English on ours. This reduces exposure to people on such forums to certain pieces of gear. I think there is enough TAD, JBL, Altec, Tannoy, Goto, in the US that we don't see here. boards like Audioasylum were full of these guys till around ten years ago, it's a less active forum now. This itself shows to me how exposure works, how people on a particular forum might be led by the general trend at that forum, as they themselves do not go out to listen much, and when they do, it is to meet people on that forum. This forum had a lot to do with Wilson and Techdas. If you go to the same country's forum on Audionirvana, you will see it is heavily on LPs and Tape. Digital chat is pretty low. UK forums - one was high sensitivity and more on Audionote and Kondo which everyone considered sacred.

I'm not sure what to make of all that. Often you like to write in a stream-of-consciousness style - but at least you use paragraphs! Purportedly we're trying to communicate so I'll suggest considering the reader, even if it is tiresome. Complete sentences can really help.

Who knows whether the audiophile market measures up to London School of Economics standards. But I remain confident that if one offers a new product or a resale and people don't buy it then one either changes or goes belly up or takes a loss. It's just a question of time. Successful audio manufacturers, particularly those that last, within the context of their expertise offer products people buy.

I doubt we can rationally speculate about how many audiophiles do not brush their teeth or do not read forums. There are probably quite a few who do not register and only lurk. Audio Aficianado has ~175,000 paying members - I use that example because it was easy to find. If Steve sees this he can say how many registered members has WBF. Year-to-date, the Audio Asylum speaker forum has 20 posts with the word 'horns' in them. In the past year at Audio Aficianado there are 71 posts with the word 'horns' across the entire board.

Not sure what it means to say this is a 'guilty hobby.' Guilty of what? Like anything some 'philes do more research than others. But for whatever reasons, product distribution generally or regionally is what it is. But I agree if there is vast army of French speakers who use horns, I'm unaware of it. I don't think we see (or at least I don't) a vast number of English speakers who own cone and box speakers trying to convince others to adopt a cone and box topology or admonishing those who don't. Why would someone want to do that?

 

[bonzo75]

People are suggesting those who don't have exposure to horns to go out and get some, just like for those who don't have exposure to analog to go out and get some. If you want to call that as admonishing because these discussions took a turn on the forum while debating, like with any debate, that's up to you.

Cones exposure is not required. It is there. If I go out to Investigate Lyra vs some cart, or some other phono, or a dac, the person has a cone. He only has a horn if I go looking for a horn.

Not sure why you are searching last year of audio asylum instead of the last twenty, and why on the word horns. Maybe those into horns actually type in model names and numbers?

 

[bonzo75]

As for your term "successful audio manufacturers", does not mean quality sonics is required for a product. I go back to my sugared water and burger analogy, all successful, there is much more to a product and running a company than the core product itself.. Look up 4 Ps of marketing, product, price, promotion, place (distribution)

 

[morricab]

I'm not sure what to make of all that. Often you like to write in a stream-of-consciousness style - but at least you use paragraphs! Purportedly we're trying to communicate so I'll suggest considering the reader, even if it is tiresome. Complete sentences can really help.

Who knows whether the audiophile market measures up to London School of Economics standards. But I remain confident that if one offers a new product or a resale and people don't buy it then one either changes or goes belly up or takes a loss. It's just a question of time. Successful audio manufacturers, particularly those that last, within the context of their expertise offer products people buy.

I doubt we can rationally speculate about how many audiophiles do not brush their teeth or do not read forums. There are probably quite a few who do not register and only lurk. Audio Aficianado has ~175,000 paying members - I use that example because it was easy to find. If Steve sees this he can say how many registered members has WBF. Year-to-date, the Audio Asylum speaker forum has 20 posts with the word 'horns' in them. In the past year at Audio Aficianado there are 71 posts with the word 'horns' across the entire board.

Not sure what it means to say this is a 'guilty hobby.' Guilty of what? Like anything some 'philes do more research than others. But for whatever reasons, product distribution generally or regionally is what it is. But I agree if there is vast army of French speakers who use horns, I'm unaware of it. I don't think we see (or at least I don't) a vast number of English speakers who own cone and box speakers trying to convince others to adopt a cone and box topology or admonishing those who don't. Why would someone want to do that?

The high efficiency forum on AA is largely about horns...no need to use the word horn all the time when everyone knows what you mean by the brandname. Quite a bit on the SET Asylum too (for obvious reasons).

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

As for your term "successful audio manufacturers", does not mean quality sonics is required for a product. I go back to my sugared water and burger analogy, all successful, there is much more to a product and running a company than the core product itself.. Look up 4 Ps of marketing, product, price, promotion, place (distribution)

Case in point Bose.

 

[microstrip]

I think you are on the wrong forum. You should be on the “Well I think it sounds ok to me!” Forum, or WITISOTMF!

At least you admit it isn’t only about SQ...although I think you forgot to mention resale value .

Reviewing is primarily advertising...at least how most reviewers approach it...not much real criticism going on...

I think you should keep reading reviews as you are definitely making the advertisers happy.

Not exactly but "What I think it is the best for me and people who share my preferences and why we have different approaches to stereo sound reproduction". I particularly appreciate the part that deals with correlating with the two aspects.

We also have a different understanding of reviews -as I often say there are no perfect speakers (or writers) the responsibility for interest and understanding lies with listener (or reader). If the subject is our interest we must be able to make the effort.

 

[marslo]

If I may these are my reasons to select AG horns :
a/ suggestion by Polish AG dealer that in my new home with 100 sqm living room without acoustic treatment horns would be better choice than cones ie Focal Electra 1037be
b/ home demo which proved his suggestion to be right but as I was not familiar with this kind of presentation my first reaction was « good but weird »
c/ no other dealer of any brand took the initiative to demo horns at my place
d/ I liked then other horn presentations during audio showes like Acapella, Blumenhoffer or to some extent - Cessaro, but I found no one with local distribution and better relation P/Q ratio
e/ AG HQ is only 1h flight from our local airport so the audition of the next generation was easy
f/ I am now used to AG sound and like it more than 9 years ago when I purchased my first Duo Omega
g/ Polish AG dealer accepts former speakers bought with him as a part of the price of the new ones

Call it laziness if you will but I will always put good distribution and service over potential better/different sound.
Better horns in Asia or US with no local distribution ? No, thank you

 

[microstrip]

Some decades ago (70's and 80's) Jean Hiraga ( his father was Japanese and his mother was French and lived in Japan in the 60's ) wrote tens of articles about the japanese high-end and audio life style in Revue du Son, Nouvelle Revue du Son and L'Audiophile. Unfortunately I did not keep them, and probably because they were in french they do not get the attention they deserved as they are not shown online. At that time the main second language in Portugal was french - my french is a little better than my english - and we bough these magazines at newsstands or simply borrowed them from richer audiophiles. However these are now dated articles - probably a lot has changed and we do not know about the japanese scene in the 21st century.

IMHO what we see online is just a small part of the tip of the high-end iceberg and any generalizations made using this minimal part are of little value and can be misleading. Specially now that the US and UK markets, that dominate the press and the online , do not have the lion share of high-end anymore.

 

[microstrip]

As for your term "successful audio manufacturers", does not mean quality sonics is required for a product. (... )

Surely. Do you say the same for "successful high-end audio manufacturers"? Although I see a few exceptions I see a lot of "quality sonics" in most of the successful ones.

 

[marslo]

Francesco , my French is also much better than my English but your English seems to me flawless

 

[bonzo75]

Then we disagree, IMHO analogies between sugared water and burgers do not apply to high-end success. I prefer to consider the case of Michelin starred restaurants.

I have been to all the Michelin here, except fat duck, the fine dining ones, and the cheaper ones. Some fine dining expensive restaurants are excellent. However the ones rated as Michelin usually are not, and when they are it's usually Michelin 1, not 2 or 3. In the better rated ones they pull your chair back every time you get up go to the toilet and come back

Also been to two of the famous San Sebastian Michelin 3s, of which one was disappointing, one was excellent. But they are like the horns of Asia

If I may these are my reasons to select AG horns :
a/ suggestion by Polish AG dealer that in my new home with 100 sqm living room without acoustic treatment horns would be better choice than cones ie Focal Electra 1037be
b/ home demo which proved his suggestion to be right but as I was not familiar with this kind of presentation my first reaction was « good but weird »
c/ no other dealer of any brand took the initiative to demo horns at my place
d/ I liked then other horn presentations during audio showes like Acapella, Blumenhoffer or to some extent - Cessaro, but I found no one with local distribution and better relation P/Q ratio
e/ AG HQ is only 1h flight from our local airport so the audition of the next generation was easy
f/ I am now used to AG sound and like it more than 9 years ago when I purchased my first Duo Omega
g/ Polish AG dealer accepts former speakers bought with him as a part of the price of the new ones

Call it laziness if you will but I will always put good distribution and service over potential better/different sound.
Better horns in Asia or US with no local distribution ? No, thank you

I do agree AG is the most professional of the horn companies, the only one that seriously trying to be a company

 

[KeithR]

Well actually Keith we are talking about American designed and American made speakers, originally designed to entertain Americans. Due to audio rag bias and advertising they were rejected in America as “unsophisticated “ designs and not audiophile worthy. The fact that many thousands of these domestically unloved speakers found their way into cramped Japanese apartments, when they would have been much more at home in large US houses is very telling of priorities when it comes to hifi, regardless of what you personally think of those speakers’ sound. They buy them ONLY for the sound (and yes many of the models sound more convincing than home hifi speakers). They also work with better sounding SET amplification (something else the Japanese preserved and basically reintroduced to the hifi world...because they realized it sounds better).

ahh yes, the Caesar response: it's all a grand conspiracy by reviewers and magazines to not support these speakers. sorry if I fail to agree. a lot of people just don't like horns and find them honky or prefer newer box speakers to them. our fearless leader @Steve Williams said that to me in 5 minutes at the recent show after hearing the Tune Audios. we've also figured out ways to build speakers with modern techniques that aren't as big as refridgerators.

most of Kenrick's refurbed JBL buyers don't use SETs. McIntosh i believe is the usual pairing. ahh, the horror that horns/SETs don't always win!

 

[bonzo75]

Those who don't like horns should state what proper horn exposure they have. Going to a show and listening to any horn, or amp, or dac, or TT, is not really exposure. And that is fine if they don't want to research more but that is the point. If you want to research horns you have to go on a mission looking for them, or just accept you won't get the exposure. Cones will come to you even if you want to not look for them, they are that well distributed. Like Coke.

 

[NorthStar]

Which country has the most percentage of Horn audiophiles? Ked, do you know?

 

[bonzo75]

No, not interested either in doing a search on the horn word like Tima did

 

[NorthStar]

I thought Greece, and Italy might be stronger on Horns.

 

[ddk]

Reading the last two pages I think (IMO for those who need the obvious repeated!) that everyone has a point here.

1- I agree with Brad that outside a small group there's a total lack of understanding and knowledge of horns in US & UK and a lot of it has to do with the incredible influence of horrible audio rags like Absolute Sh!t & Junkpile during the 80's and 90's, even today 99% what you read there is worthless dribble wether by design or by ignorance. Not to forget that some of those mavens were recommending equipment based on THD and Slew rates prior to jining H & P's ratazines. If you read Stereo Sound and other Japanese magazines of the same era you'll understand why they caught on to the beauty of great horn and triode sound while we let go of everything following the con artists here.

2- Keith is also correct criticizing the modern horns, I can't live with most of what I've heard either but I feel that way about box speakers and panels too. The outstanding ones in each group are very few, too few IMO but that's always been the case. But Keith is wrong thinking that Japanese highend horn market is Kendrick refurbished JBLs, those are mostly for nubes. The true highenders have way more sophisticated and exotic systems than mid level JBL studio monitors. They're also much older than Kendrick buyers with music collections to match, unfortunately they're a dying breed and even Japan is going the way of the West to dead sounding inefficient boxes needing equally boring and dead sounding high wattage amplification just to get them to fart.

3- Ked has a very valid point too, you don't know what you're missing until you've heard a good horn system properly setup and matched.

david