Whats the general feeling on Hi-End brands that have moved production overseas.

[Bill Hart]

Thanks for the responses and a interesting mix of feelings on this topic.

I'm curious though, for those who disagree with the line of thinking that Hi-End audio products assembled in low labor cost nations assumes inferior workmanship can you provide an example of these nations producing a piece of Hi-End hifi gear of their own concept/design and end product that you would consider or maybe already have spent big bucks on? For the sake of argument, let's say big bucks means $3k or more for an average slobb like myself.

I am certainly not silly enough to assume that these nations in question don't have highly intelligent designers, engineers and craftsmen of their own but I do think until we start seeing these places offer their own products of similar performance as the ones built in locations more associated with the Hi-End industry then the stigma of low quality will remain, whether it's true or not.

Thanks

I took a quick look: There was an Audio Space preamp that I remember reading a review of some time ago in HiFi+, i think, which compared favorably to the CAT preamp in the 9k dollar price range; Shanling, which, I believe was known for tube driven CD players that had a 'Buck Rogers' aesthetic is a chinese brand, and there are a few others, including Opera/Consonance, which is probably more beer budget than high end, but I've never heard their amps. To the extent Chinese manufacturers have little to no brand identity, it is because it is apparently more profitable to be the OEM supplier for other companies, given the low cost of labor and relative government stability. (I think the latter issue is probably why less stuff is made in Mexico despite our entry into NAFTA years ago.) But, you can't ignore the other side of the equation- look at what is happening in the United States right now~heavy unemployment, fights over the 'right to work' concept in union-heavy states, and a dearth of manufacturing. Is it because China 'stole' those jobs or because the US has not remained competitive? This becomes a political question as much as a practical one. I've been an IP lawyer for 32 years, I get the notion of protecting proprietary matter. Somehow, Japanese and German car companies can manufacture in the US and compete pretty effectively, based in southern US states which are not saddled by the same costs as the northeast or midwest. I think that is telling. It's as much about the US as it is about China in my estimation. And quality control is an issue, no matter where a product is manufactured. I'm not excusing China's record on human rights. I am a little mystified that in a global economy, we can't seem to get out of our own way, and I don't think China is the problem.

 

[A.wayne]

Thats not by accident, NAFTA and the chinese trade agreement , signed a year apart was the beginning of the pull down, all by design ..

 

[Bill Hart]

Thats not by accident, NAFTA and the chinese trade agreement , signed a year apart was the beginning of the pull down, all by design ..

We also have trade agreements with South Korea, its labor costs are nowhere near as low as China's, but there are several of us here who own a highly regarded piece or two of Allnic gear that originates in that country as well. There are also a bunch of Eastern European brands that we rarely see in the States that are pretty serious, many of which seem to get coverage in 6Moons.

 

[A.wayne]

Yes, as labor agreements with every country in Centro and So.america , well maybe with exception , Brazil , i believe with them we are doing energy. NAFTA started the beginning of the end , what has followed after was all by design ...

 

[edorr]

All this whining about human rights in China is a joke. Anyone concerned about "human rights" in countries we trade with, should take pause next time they fill up their tank (presumably of their SUV or pickup truck), and consider how much they would pay if we were not buying Saudi oil.

 

[Mosin]

I took a quick look: There was an Audio Space preamp that I remember reading a review of some time ago in HiFi+, i think, which compared favorably to the CAT preamp in the 9k dollar price range; Shanling, which, I believe was known for tube driven CD players that had a 'Buck Rogers' aesthetic is a chinese brand, and there are a few others, including Opera/Consonance, which is probably more beer budget than high end, but I've never heard their amps. To the extent Chinese manufacturers have little to no brand identity, it is because it is apparently more profitable to be the OEM supplier for other companies, given the low cost of labor and relative government stability. (I think the latter issue is probably why less stuff is made in Mexico despite our entry into NAFTA years ago.) But, you can't ignore the other side of the equation- look at what is happening in the United States right now~heavy unemployment, fights over the 'right to work' concept in union-heavy states, and a dearth of manufacturing. Is it because China 'stole' those jobs or because the US has not remained competitive? This becomes a political question as much as a practical one. I've been an IP lawyer for 32 years, I get the notion of protecting proprietary matter. Somehow, Japanese and German car companies can manufacture in the US and compete pretty effectively, based in southern US states which are not saddled by the same costs as the northeast or midwest. I think that is telling. It's as much about the US as it is about China in my estimation. And quality control is an issue, no matter where a product is manufactured. I'm not excusing China's record on human rights. I am a little mystified that in a global economy, we can't seem to get out of our own way, and I don't think China is the problem.

China is opening an auto plant down here in Alabama. They will join the ranks beside Mercedes, Acura, Honda, Kia, Hyundai and Toyota, not to mention the dozens of foreign OEM suppliers, like Mauser and TSTech. That should tell Michigan something, but the UAW hasn't noticed that we build the finest constructed cars in the world, yet. They are too busy avoiding those "Enter at Your Own Risk" areas in Detroit, I suppose. That, and getting stoned on their lunch breaks.

 

[mep]

To the extent Chinese manufacturers have little to no brand identity, it is because it is apparently more profitable to be the OEM supplier for other companies, given the low cost of labor and relative government stability. (I think the latter issue is probably why less stuff is made in Mexico despite our entry into NAFTA years ago.)

I think the reason the Chinese have little to no brand identity is due to the fact they haven’t earned the trust of audiophiles. When established high-end companies shift their manufacturing to China, their customers are depending on the company to maintain quality control in their Chinese factories. As for Mexico, I firmly believe Mexico lost jobs to China simply because the Chinese labor rates were/are cheaper than Mexican labor rates (even after the much higher cost of shipping of goods from China) and that ought to give large corporations pause instead of rolling up their sleeves in greed. One of these days hopefully the world will run out of other countries to exploit. In the meantime, large manufacturing corporations will continue to look for the next *great* country to find dirt cheap wages.

 

[microstrip]

Although labor cost still has to be weighted by manufacturing productivity to be meaningful, and other factors such as political stability and security also should be considered, most of it is said in this chart ...

Happily some part of the high-end is considered a small niche with low total global value, otherwise it would follow the current hypocritical trends of the global economy.

 

[A.wayne]

All this whining about human rights in China is a joke. Anyone concerned about "human rights" in countries we trade with, should take pause next time they fill up their tank (presumably of their SUV or pickup truck), and consider how much they would pay if we were not buying Saudi oil.

Why SUV OR PICKUP TRUCKS and i guess you are not aware of where most of our oil comes from ...

 

[A.wayne]

Although labor cost still has to be weighted by manufacturing productivity to be meaningful, and other factors such as political stability and security also should be considered, most of it is said in this chart ...

Happily some part of the high-end is considered a small niche with low total global value, otherwise it would follow the current hypocritical trends of the global economy.

Ok so according to your list Socialist countries = fail ...

Where's West germany ...

 

[Bill Hart]

The chart Micro attached is pretty interesting, the Philippines is even cheaper than China. My bet is Jack and his gang could cobble together some serious high end gear for market if they wanted to. As to the politics, or exploiting the masses, I dunno. I think as far as the US is concerned, a lot of people would just be happy to have jobs.

 

[edorr]

Why SUV OR PICKUP TRUCKS and i guess you are not aware of where most of our oil comes from ...

It does not matter where most of the oil comes from. Saudi arabia represent about 10% of global output. If you took that supply off the market because of gross human rights violations prices would skyrocket, especially it you also boycotted a few other mediaval dictatorships in the middle east. We are not willing to do that, so I conclude any complaining about Chinese human rights violations are blatantly hypocritical. Check out this article on US reliance on Saudi oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/17/b...oil-is-growing-again.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The SUV and Pickup truck reference was just to underscore that no one I know is willing to consciensly cut back on energy consumption to reduce dependence on foreign oil. This includes the vast majority on the forum. With two class A monoblocks humming in my basement I am guilty as charged myself. So for me to get all worked up about who is stitching together my Nike shoes or assembles my iPhone shows a double standard as well.

Ironically, my monoblocks are 100% Chinese (Jungson JA-200). Not sure who's IP they stole to build them, but they sound pretty good.

 

[edorr]

Ok so according to your list Socialist countries = fail ...

Where's West germany ...

You got it inverted. High labor cost means factory workers earn a living wage, so I would say socialist countries = succeed.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Why are West Germany and East Germany separated out? Certainly skews that number.

 

[Bill Hart]

It does not matter where most of the oil comes from. Saudi arabia represent about 10% of global output. If you took that supply off the market because of gross human rights violations prices would skyrocket, especially it you also boycotted a few other mediaval dictatorships in the middle east. We are not willing to do that, so I conclude any complaining about Chinese human rights violations are blatantly hypocritical. Check out this article on US reliance on Saudi oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/17/b...oil-is-growing-again.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The SUV and Pickup truck reference was just to underscore that no one I know is willing to consciensly cut back on energy consumption to reduce dependence on foreign oil. This includes the vast majority on the forum. With two class A monoblocks humming in my basement I am guilty as charged myself. So for me to get all worked up about who is stitching together my Nike shoes or assembles my iPhone shows a double standard as well.

Ironically, my monoblocks are 100% Chinese (Jungson JA-200). Not sure who's IP they stole to build them, but they sound pretty good.

I'd have more to say about Saudi Arabia if we could discuss politics, but I won't. I don't drive SUVs only because I don't like driving trucks. I like little, lithe cars. Our daily is a Mini, which gets good gas mileage, but again, it's not because I'm super energy conscious- it's a ball to drive, and we've had a couple of them, including a 'Works' version which is a little animal. Of course, from a traditional British point of view, that car is made overseas too- in Germany. *
*Possible correction- I had thought the 'new' Mini was purely German in build, but the factoids suggest that even as to the 'Works' cars they are manufactured and even the engines built, using German engineering, in England. So, it's a UK marque, owned by a German company, designed by German engineers, but apparently built in England.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If the quality is as good as european ,japanese australian or north american products , i dont care .
But it ll take china another 10 a 20 years to turn the (copy ) business into independant high tech technologies as the above mentioned , by that time the wages have also gone up considerably, a new status quo .
I work for a international company , who also does engineering in china , and according to some people who have been there the general technical standard is not comparable to lets say holland,....yet
But i do see a great future for china not europe , china left communism , brussels is trying to establish a new kind

 

[Bruce B]

Does anyone know the real reason why Apple is moving some of its production back to the U.S.? Better QA? A deal with Foxcon?

 

[rockitman]

Does anyone know the real reason why Apple is moving some of its production back to the U.S.? Better QA? A deal with Foxcon?

It's a P.R. move imo.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

*Possible correction- I had thought the 'new' Mini was purely German in build, but the factoids suggest that even as to the 'Works' cars they are manufactured and even the engines built, using German engineering, in England. So, it's a UK marque, owned by a German company, designed by German engineers, but apparently built in England.

Nothing wrong with that scenario in my book! Now lets see a real resurrection of Trimuph and MGB.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

It's a P.R. move imo.

Yep. I think so too! Too much heat!