When do you stop upgrading?

[Al M.]

Ps: you don't know enough whether to tube roll or not tube

I don't tube roll either. No need to, I have the tubes which the manufacturer of my preamp/amp combo (Octave) recommends and has designed his product with.

Tube rolling would distract me from the essentials, which lie elsewhere. Just this evening I made a huge improvement to my system that cost me zero dollars. Nothing to do with tubes. And by definition not achievable with tube rolling.

Turns out my system is even less compromised -- though obviously it still it is, like every system -- than I knew when I wrote post #32 four hours ago, expressing happiness with it.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't tube roll either. No need to, I have the tubes which the manufacturer of my preamp/amp combo (Octave) recommends and has designed his product with.

Tube rolling would distract me from the essentials, which lie elsewhere. Just this evening I made a huge improvement to my system that cost me zero dollars. Nothing to do with tubes. And by definition not achievable with tube rolling.

Turns out my system is even less compromised -- though obviously it still it is, like every system -- than I knew when I wrote post #32 four hours ago, expressing happiness with it.

So people who tube roll are not interested in other improvements? amazing conclusion

Also Peter, tube rolling analogy is not DIY modding. Tube rolling is like cartridge rolling but requires less skill, time, and except in rare cases, less money too. Usually it is improving on cheaper stock ancillaries, to find the right one, then settling.

 

[PeterA]

So people who tube roll are not interested in other improvements? amazing conclusion

Also Peter, tube rolling analogy is not DIY modding. Tube rolling is like cartridge rolling but requires less skill, time, and except in rare cases, less money too. Usually it is improving on cheaper stock ancillaries, to find the right one, then settling.

Bonzo, I have nothing against others tube rolling or DIY modding their gear. It’s always good to do something to improve one’s sound to better meet his preferences. I will be trying a new cartridge shortly just because I am curious. You don’t seem to do any of that, which is fine too. We all make our choices and have our fun.

I appreciate all of the advice you and Micro have given me over the years.

 

[sbo6]

For me I see no reason to stop upgrading as long as I have the funds to do so and as long as it reaps sonic benefits (to my ever - aging ears) to allow me to hear deeper into the music. However, I will say that with my relatively recent upgrades including the Vivids and the Audionet amp + preamp I want to listen to music more than ever and when I hear other "better" systems I realize that the top of the mountain is closer than I imagined it would be.

So maybe the upgrade end is in sight?

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, I have nothing against to tube rolling or DIY modding my gear. It’s always good to do something to improve one sound to better meet his preferences. I will be trying a new cartridge shortly just because I am curious. You don’t seem to do any of that, which is fine too. We all make our choices and have our fun.

I appreciate all of the advice you and Micro have given me over the years.

I bought a VDH Colibri 5 years before you did, compared gold and platinum, also with atlas then sold it. Tubes... Well, you just got started, at your pace will take 20 years

I appreciate all the videos shared by you and Stehno over the years

 

[PeterA]

I bought a VDH Colibri 5 years before you did, compared gold and platinum, also with atlas then sold it. Tubes... Well, you just got started, at your pace will take 20 years

I appreciate all the videos shared by you and Stehno over the years

I wasn’t aware of that. What kind of tonearm did you use for the comparisons and how would you describe the difference between the platinum and gold coils?

As far as tubes are concerned, I bought a 10 year supply of matched tubes for all my electronics so I do not anticipate much experimenting there.

 

[bonzo75]

I wasn’t aware of that. What kind of tonearm did you use for the comparisons and how would you describe the difference between the platinum and gold coils?

As far as tubes are concerned, I bought a 10 year supply of matched tubes for all my electronics so I do not anticipate much experimenting there.

Kuzma on a Stabi XL4, and Ypsilon phono. It was dctom's system. Later on also compared my allnic phono there, among other places, and sold off.

I don't think there was much between the G and P except G was a bit softer, so preferred the P. In that system we preferred the Atlas. The P did promise some magic in the violin range but both the vdh there weren't as balanced. I heard the stradivarius series first time in 2017 which was after that and was blown away with each demo (except where the sample seemed awful sounding)

 

[andromedaaudio]

I won't. I don't have endless money to switch gears therefore better not start, don't won't to be stuck like you with a compromised one

Thats what i mean .
First of all if you wanna upgrade a system you first have to have system .
If you dont have a system how much are you into listening/ audiophilia in the first place .
Secondly Lamm electronics is considerd by many expirienced listeners as top notch tube amplification and you call a LL1 sign 45 K 4 box tube pre amp " compromised "

 

[bonzo75]

Thats what i mean .
First of all if you wanna upgrade a system you first have to have system .
If you dont have a system how much are you into listening/ audiophiia in the first place .
Secondly Lamm electronics is considerd by many expirienced listeners as top notch tube amplification and you call a LL1 sign 45 K 4 box tube pre amp " compromised "

As mentioned on another thread, I have zero intention of interacting with you

 

[Al M.]

So people who tube roll are not interested in other improvements? amazing conclusion

That indeed amazing conclusion is entirely in your own head.

 

[tima]

I will know when to stop and that's probably not too far out. I certainly see zero tweaks of interest and have rid my system of those. I'm good with racks and platforms. I'm good w/ my DIY RCM. (Others, imo, should look beyond their desktop units.) I'm satisfied with cabling, though I prefer not to discuss details about where that is at the moment - you can find some of it if you know where to look.

I'm satisfied with electronics and that will be sans my ARC REF gear. (still great stuff - both are for sale at good prices, pm me if interest.) I'll never give up my Lamm M1.2 refs if for no other reason as I'll want such amps for reviewing.

I do have an agenda though not all plans are announced. On it are speakers which remain unknown and appropriate amps - that could be the M1.2s or something else. A 3012 tonearm is already planned - got the armboard. And I'll continue trying cartridges though the MasterSigs aren't going anywhere.

Fwiw, since there is a small discuss on tube rolling, the M1.2s are great for that - and while Vladimir doesn't explicitly say do it, he's fine with experimenting. Each monoblock takes a single 6DJ8 family member and I got numerous top quality 7308s, 6902s and some 6DJ8s. Seimens, Amperex, Telefunkens, etc. Harder to find really good ones, but I still look and they do come around. Slightly different sonic flavors and emphases all with that Lamm goodness - it's fun! There are some rolling opportunites with their pres- and phono- but I won't get into that here.

Upgrade party on! You'll know when to stop - trust your ears.

 

[tima]

Also Peter, tube rolling analogy is not DIY modding. Tube rolling is like cartridge rolling but requires less skill, time, and except in rare cases, less money too. Usually it is improving on cheaper stock ancillaries, to find the right one, then settling.

Yes, exactly, but not right one - right ones - no need to settle, just as with cartridges.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, exactly, but not right one - right ones - no need to settle, just as with cartridges.

Tim, it’s not about need, it’s about desire. I inquired about tube rolling and considering it. In hobbies, we should do what we want to do. We all have different levels of curiosity and priorities.

 

[tima]

Tim, it’s not about need, it’s about desire. I inquired about tube rolling and considering it. In hobbies, we should do what we want to do. We all have different levels of curiosity and priorities.

Not sure I understand why your response - as if I said something contrary to you. I was responding to Bonzo, desire would not have made the larger point. Of course we can do what we need or desire to do - never thought that was in question. And of course we have different curiosities and priorities and goals.

 

[PeterA]

Not sure I understand why your response - as if I said something contrary to you. I was responding to Bonzo, desire would not have made the larger point. Of course we can do what we need or desire to do - never thought that was in question. And of course we have different curiosities and priorities and goals.

Sorry Tim. I inferred from Bonzo's comment, and your seeming agreement, that tube rolling is like cartridge swapping: both being necessary, even perhaps required, to find that which is what you describe as "right". You wrote that there is no "need to settle". I agree that there is no need, but some reach the point where they want to, that's all.

As this is a thread about when to stop upgrading, I took from your tone that you and Bonzo both think people should tube roll when they have tube gear. It just came across to me as an imperative rather than as a recommendation or even a simple choice. I'm simply stating that there is an alternative, and that it is certainly not necessary to experiment with tubes to enjoy one's tube electronics or with cartridges and a vinyl source.

I'm a bit sensitive in these challenging times and not always as diplomatic as I would like to be. I have been enduring for years recommendations to dump my Magico speakers, get out more to hear other stuff, increase exposure and experience, and now roll tubes and swap cartridges in my compromised system recorded on crappy system videos. I feel like Spiritofmusic these days always being told what to do.

I apologize if I misunderstood both your and Bonzo's comments.

 

[sbnx]

When to stop upgrading? For some, this will never happen as it is just a curiosity thing. A lot of folks make lateral moves just to try/hear something different. One could stop upgrading when the system sounds like music to them. It is a strange thing. I don't think anybody goes to a concert and thinks "I wonder what she would sound like if she used a different microphone?" or "I wonder what the symphony sounds like over there?". (If you do then maybe some professional help is needed.) Yet we do this at home.

Maybe I am in curiosity camp. I recently heard a pair of XVX setup pretty well and that got me thinking about what that would sound like in my room and even which color I might like. I really like the cranberry pearl but I am intrigued by the viola pearl. I think I need to search out a few more XVX setups and see what those sound like.

 

[andromedaaudio]

View attachment 85914

This was a joke off course .

I guess you stop upgrading untill you hear something better and then the whole circus starts again .
Its inevitable and i suppose different for everybody .

I wont spent that much on HIFI though , no 100 K amps for me .
For me to spend that much on an amp , it has to be able to do much more things then simply amplify an audio signal .
Like drive me to work as well

 

[tima]

Sorry Tim. I inferred from Bonzo's comment, and your seeming agreement, that tube rolling is like cartridge swapping: both being necessary, even perhaps required, to find that which is what you describe as "right". You wrote that there is no "need to settle". I agree that there is no need, but some reach the point where they want to, that's all.

As this is a thread about when to stop upgrading, I took from your tone that you and Bonzo both think people should tube roll when they have tube gear. It just came across to me as an imperative rather than as a recommendation or even a simple choice. I'm simply stating that there is an alternative, and that it is certainly not necessary to experiment with tubes to enjoy one's tube electronics or with cartridges and a vinyl source.

I'm a bit sensitive in these challenging times and not always as diplomatic as I would like to be. I have been enduring for years recommendations to dump my Magico speakers, get out more to hear other stuff, increase exposure and experience, and now roll tubes and swap cartridges in my compromised system recorded on crappy system videos. I feel like Spiritofmusic these days always being told what to do.

I apologize if I misunderstood both your and Bonzo's comments.

@bonzo75 originally suggested that tube rollers would work their way 'up the ladder' to the one tube of their satisfaction, then settle on that: "Usually it is improving on cheaper stock ancillaries, to find the right one, then settling. "

My point was simply that it is typical to not settle on just one tube but have several varietals - in the same way that some people don't settle on a single cartridge.

Just as there are different flavors of cartridges, their are different flavors of the same tube from different manufacturers.

I never said anything to the effect that people should swap tubes. Neither an imperative nor a recommendation was in my one sentence post.

My reply to bonzo was from the perspective of someone who has swapped tubes since my PV-5 CJ preamp a long time ago. Happily we both have electronics that sound excellent as they come right out of the box.

Given all that - there are no worries here Peter - I just did not want there to be a misunderstanding between us, which is why I followed up above and here. And I appreciate that you replied. Better to work it out publicly or privately.

It is easy in such a large audio salon forum for armchair grannies to quack and snipe and issue reviews of other's gear. Anytime Wilson is mentioned there are critics - tlhat is a universal - so you are (were) not alone in owning a target. Dogs bark, the caravan moves on.

 

[audioquest4life]

Yes it is. But I’ve heard many tube amps in other systems. Just last weekend the mighty VTL 450. And last night an Octave.

I have not yet gotten bitten by the tube rolling bug. Let me know when you get your system. It will be fun to watch you switching gears.

There is not much to learn for Tang’s Children. One guy wants to tube roll and another guy doesn’t. No life lessons there I’m afraid.

Which Octave amp did you listen to? I owned MRE130s years ago with Super Black Box and heard the Octave Jubilee Monos many times in Germany at the factory, the Munich High End, and at a friends house. I never rolled the power tubes in my Octave amp, but, did experiment rolling the smaller tubes.

 

[Al M.]

Which Octave amp did you listen to? I owned MRE130s years ago with Super Black Box and heard the Octave Jubilee Monos many times in Germany at the factory, the Munich High End, and at a friends house. I never rolled the power tubes in my Octave amp, but, did experiment rolling the smaller tubes.

It was my pre/power amp combo of Octave HP 700 / Octave RE 320 with Super Black Box. I never rolled tubes, neither power nor driver tubes. I don't feel the need to.