Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

[andromedaaudio]

they have learned that powertubes sockets are not mounted on a circuit board but are still a long way from a nice clean structure. They should have looked at quad monos, they run deadquiet on klipsch horns.View attachment 113032View attachment 113033
P.S
probably would then be twice as expensive and less profit.no bashing... my opion

No offense , you can bash CAT all you want , ive seen so much shiny well made audiofile boxes in my life that it almost becomes irrelevant
I like the gear and how it sounds , i hardwire my speaker X overs too , why would i use a circuitboard ?
Music has a intrinsic drive and i think CAT has it , and its relatively cheap too

 

[Al M.]

I am open to trying everything...and basically have.

That said:
Basically, all but one of my audio friends here in Europe use tubes (the one that doesn't uses Class A SS) and all but one of those use SET (the other has Nagra VPA PP 845 amps). They ALL came from large SS and high power tube PP amps...including me. We have also all been through the Class D of several types, PP triode, PP high power UL tube, OTL , Class A SS, Class AB SS, Mosfet, Bipolar, hybrid, SET hybrid etc. etc. We are all on SET now...because of the sound. It is experience, not religion. I am always open to listening to new technologies or implementation (I have owned three OTLs, three different Class D amps...have you?). There is no dogma, just listening and thinking about what is heard.

One of my friends recently decided to try the Plinius SA-102 MKIII Class A SS amp with his 91dB Dynamikks speakers. It actually sounded "OK". However, one could easily hear where it deviated from realistic sound (flattish images, a bit gray tonality). He has now gone back to his Ayon Helios (Parallel SET with 6C33C) and recently I brought him my Horning SATI 520B amp to play with and it simply blew away the Plinius and was significantly better than they Ayon as well. It's not that we don't try other tech...we do and then we reject it because...it SOUNDS inferior.

There are a couple of non-SET amps that I could easily live with. One is the Ypsilon Phaeton integrated hybrid. The other is the Thrax Spartacus all 300B push pull amp (but this is very expensive). The Alieno and TLA amps have also sounded good at shows. Finally, Aries Cerat has their new single element amplifier, which somehow "welds" a tube and transistor for a single stage amp...these sound probably better than just about anything out there (it is still single ended though).

That's all great and such. Yet you are generalizing from your and your friends' experience that everyone has to like SETs more than other topologies; you also claim that SETs can drive much more insensitive speakers that most would acknowledge (as has been debated extensively on this forum), and thus are a solution for most systems.

Your stance *is* religious zealotry, as also another poster pointed out on this forum recently.

 

[morricab]

That's all great and such. Yet you are generalizing from your and your friends' experience that everyone has to like SETs more than other topologies; you also claim that SETs can drive much more insensitive speakers that most would acknowledge (as has been debated extensively on this forum), and thus are a solution for most systems.

Your stance *is* religious zealotry, as also another poster pointed out on this forum recently.

Just you saying I'm a zealot it doesn't make it so. Do you even know WHAT my "stance" is? Do you even realize that if I hear something that is fundamentally better than a really good SET that I would drop SET in a hot minute?

Probably you do not because you don't actually pay attention to what I write. I have very good reasons for why I listen to SET with high sensitivity speakers...it sounds more realistic. As a scientist, I also strive to understand WHY this combination sounds better than other combinations. I think it lies in psychoacoustics as nearly all attempts at metrics zero in on the harmonic distortion weighting and the impact on sonic quality. This inevitably leads to the realization that a well executed SET has more of those desirable traits than other amp types.

Do you realize that I will most likely in the not too distant future move away from pure SET to the new Aries Cerat tech? So much for zealotry... you guys are all so quick to brand and too slow to think critically...sad.

When someone eventually (probably not in my lifetime) comes up with a truly distortion free amplifier (because they have invented perfectly linear amplification devices) I will for sure give that the listen it deserves and decide if it is an improvement or not. I have done this with all amp types. I have owned a bunch of amps that I now would consider inadequate but I owned them to see if they advanced the sound in some way. When they didn't they were sold off.

SET will work very well with your speakers but I am sure you have not given them a proper try. I can tell you that my colleague who had Octave monos before would never ever consider going back to that sound... and why would he want to?

 

[Al M.]

As a scientist, I also strive to understand WHY this combination sounds better than other combinations. I think it lies in psychoacoustics as nearly all attempts at metrics zero in on the harmonic distortion weighting and the impact on sonic quality. This inevitably leads to the realization that a well executed SET has more of those desirable traits than other amp types.

And as a scientist I am skeptical.

SET will work very well with your speakers but I am sure you have not given them a proper try. I can tell you that my colleague who had Octave monos before would never ever consider going back to that sound... and why would he want to?

Everyone has their own experiences in their own or others' system contexts.

 

[microstrip]

I am open to trying everything...and basically have. (...)

Well, such statement coupled with

(...) There are a couple of non-SET amps that I could easily live with. (...)

just shows you are not open minded concerning stereo sound reproduction.

An open mind should understand the roots of this hobby - yes, I am considering high-end stereo listening an hobby and purposely ignore the situation of those who, partially or in full time, earn money with it - and understand the capabilities of each piece of equipment to create musical experiences. Such understanding of qualities and compromises should enlarge our acceptance of gear. IMO pretending that of "all known amplifiers there are just a couple of not -SET amps I could live " with just shows a non open mind and/or an extreme bias. But even more sad is the case of those who dislike most everything simply because they lack the knowledge or will to make it sound good.

Fortunately I could easily live with more than 80% of the tens of amplifiers I have tried in my listening rooms for the last twenty years, although my current preference for top digital narrowed somewhat the choice.

 

[Al M.]

Just you saying I'm a zealot it doesn't make it so.

Well, you come across like one not just to me but to some others on WBF as well.

Perhaps some self-reflection may be in order to ask yourself why that might be so.

 

[Kingrex]

Well, such statement coupled with



just shows you are not open minded concerning stereo sound reproduction.

An open mind should understand the roots of this hobby - yes, I am considering high-end stereo listening an hobby and purposely ignore the situation of those who, partially or in full time, earn money with it - and understand the capabilities of each piece of equipment to create musical experiences. Such understanding of qualities and compromises should enlarge our acceptance of gear. IMO pretending that of "all known amplifiers there are just a couple of not -SET amps I could live " with just shows a non open mind and/or an extreme bias. But even more sad is the case of those who dislike most everything simply because they lack the knowledge or will to make it sound good.

Fortunately I could easily live with more than 80% of the tens of amplifiers I have tried in my listening rooms for the last twenty years, although my current preference for top digital narrowed somewhat the choice.

I can't live with any that I have tried. That is why I have sold them all and moved onto new.

 

[Kingrex]

highly unmusical KT valves.

????? Really. I understand some tubes seem to be more "musical" the others. Whatever that means. But a KT88 is not unmusical.

 

[Kingrex]

This is a Found Music Blade. KT88. One of the most musical amps I have heard. This same builder tried all the 300B, 2A3 etc and found they have flaws he could not overcome. I don't know what that means. He says he uses the KT88 because its highly musical.

This is a monoblock. Each weighs about 80 lbs. Again, I SEE the tube matters to a degree, but the iron, caps, reaistors, case and internal wire matter more.

 

[Al M.]

????? Really. I understand some tubes seem to be more "musical" the others. Whatever that means. But a KT88 is not unmusical.

Don't worry, just another zealot speaking (shrug).

 

[microstrip]

I can't live with any that I have tried. That is why I have sold them all and moved onto new.

Even the NHB108?

 

[Kingrex]

That’s my experience as well. I have had some very good sounding SE amps—300B and 46—and I have used them with high-efficiency speakers (99db) with an easy 16 ohm load, but I consistently prefer the sound of my PP amps especially my Western Electric 124 clone. To each his own.

A friend wants to sell me a WE clone by Deja Vu. Suppose to be old Chicago Electric iron. A 300B PP. Be says its the best he heard. Its only $6k with 4.x Elrog 300B. I'm interested, but I'm so tired of getting something I never heard, then feeling I threw away money.

 

[bonzo75]

????? Really. I understand some tubes seem to be more "musical" the others. Whatever that means. But a KT88 is not unmusical.

KT 88, 66, 120, 150, 170 are all unmusical.

 

[microstrip]

????? Really. I understand some tubes seem to be more "musical" the others. Whatever that means. But a KT88 is not unmusical.

Just playing Genesis The Musical Box (Nursery Crime) to them - may be they will become musical, quitting the unmusical status.

 

[Kingrex]

Even the NHB108?

When I hear a Daetzeel paires with an Evolution Accoustic speaker, its a match made in heaven.

I feel the thought of a amp in a box is limiting. An amp is nothing without a load. Amps and the paired speaker make a sound. People can toss the word Musical or lifelike around all they want, but each person seems to be unique in what they gravitate too.

My PAP trio 15 Coax with the Dartzeel is pretty flawless. I don't come home from listening to someones $200k to $400k system and feel unsatisfied with my system. I'm rather happy and feel its not much different than what I just heard. With the Blade I felt like Holly Crap. This is like being at Mikes. I don't know I have heard much better in many regards. I have heard bigger, more visceral, greater punch, blacker. But I have rarely heard a life and air with detail that match the Blade/PAP pairing.

I don't know why, but I gravitate to drums. I was at this concert last night. I was aware I was focusing on Jeff Hamiltons cymbals, rimshots and the general crack of the percussion. The Blade with my speaker is far far better at bringing that out. Will it tire me after a while. I'm not sure. It is a lot more information to process. Its very easy to relax and get soaked up in the music with the Dartzeel.

 

[Kingrex]

KT 88, 66, 120, 150, 170 are all unmusical.

What does unmusical mean.

The flip side of the coin is 300B, 45, 2A3 etc are artificial and untrue to the source. Not that you can't like them. But they are creating sounds that are not how the mastering engineer intended for the music to be heard.

 

[morricab]

And as a scientist I am skeptical.



Everyone has their own experiences in their own or others' system contexts.

But did you try or did you let your own biases and preconceived notions get in the way?

BTW. There is skepticism and then there is pure stubbornness…

 

[morricab]

Well, such statement coupled with



just shows you are not open minded concerning stereo sound reproduction.

An open mind should understand the roots of this hobby - yes, I am considering high-end stereo listening an hobby and purposely ignore the situation of those who, partially or in full time, earn money with it - and understand the capabilities of each piece of equipment to create musical experiences. Such understanding of qualities and compromises should enlarge our acceptance of gear. IMO pretending that of "all known amplifiers there are just a couple of not -SET amps I could live " with just shows a non open mind and/or an extreme bias. But even more sad is the case of those who dislike most everything simply because they lack the knowledge or will to make it sound good.

Fortunately I could easily live with more than 80% of the tens of amplifiers I have tried in my listening rooms for the last twenty years, although my current preference for top digital narrowed somewhat the choice.

Your standards are simply too low.

 

[bonzo75]

What does unmusical mean.

The flip side of the coin is 300B, 45, 2A3 etc are artificial and untrue to the source. Not that you can't like them. But they are creating sounds that are not how the mastering engineer intended for the music to be heard.

quite the reverse. You get simple circuits with the lower watt tubes which keep signal pure. But you need better speakers and recordings to listen to that

 

[morricab]

Well, you come across like one not just to me but to some others on WBF as well.

Perhaps some self-reflection may be in order to ask yourself why that might be so.

Yes, you know God came down to me and scribbled on some stone tablets, “Though shalt only listen with SET amps” and I took those tablets down to you non-believers here at WBF to spread the holy word. Get a clue!

It is well known the tendency to brand things you are uncomfortable with rather than discuss openly. You and a few others have sadly embraced that knee jerk response to things you don’t like or fear. Let’s hear instead your research into psychoacoustics and where it lead you? What insights have you achieved? Or is “it sounds good to me” the furthest you got?