Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

[KeithR]

The new CAT models might not be Class A anymore, which would be how they have managed to keep the power up and size down. The old JL2 signature was HUGE and more than double the JL5s weight. It also had much bigger output iron. Now the new claims to use better amorphous core trannies, which probably do sound better in the upper ranges.

And required its own dedicated A/C

 

[Ron Resnick]

The new CAT models might not be Class A anymore, which would be how they have managed to keep the power up and size down. The old JL2 signature was HUGE and more than double the JL5s weight. It also had much bigger output iron. Now the new claims to use better amorphous core trannies, which probably do sound better in the upper ranges.

I think I liked the JL3 Statement!

 

[morricab]

I really don't understand this concept of how 50w can sound louder or more poweful in audio than 120w or 150w. It certainly does not work this way in RF (radio) land.

You can easily hear this with Aries Cerat amps of the same nominal power. We had until recently also a Diana Integrated, which is nominally 25 watts...just like Genus. It sounded more powerful than Genus on most speakers. There were two main differences; 1) It was using 814 DHTetrodes wired in triode instead of the E280F wired in triode and 2) it had a much bigger power supply and larger output transformers. It basically sounded just as powerful as our Diana Forte at 60 watts. Amazing grunt from a absolutely HUGE SET (120Kg or over 250lbs). Genus sounds more powerful than nearly all other non-Aries Cerat SETs I have heard (perhaps the KR SX is close even though rated at double the Genus power). I imagine the Concero 25s might the ante even further but I haven't heard them (and they are driven by the E280F in triode like Genus...Concero 65s use the 814 in triode). The Concero 65s sound pretty limitless.

 

[morricab]

And required its own dedicated A/C

i had some Silvaweld OTL monos that tripped the circuit breaker...each one! I had to do sequential startup, blow the breaker then quickly reset it before the huge capacitor banks decharged so the next current inrush was less than the initial...took 3 or 4 tries to get them on......great sounding room heaters though...

 

[morricab]

Nice answer but keep in mind that the driver stage is more important than the output stage... the driver makes the music (voltage amplification and driving the output tubes) and the output stage is for impedance matching. Large double C-cores are fine but the winding diagram of the transformer is more important - and of course the operating points and the psu.

Agreed. I think the driver stage was definitely not as robust as my Aries Cerat and the power supply, while not small (the JJ322 was 42kg) was not in the same league.

 

[amadeus]

Have you heard the MastersounD PF100 Litz (the 4 x 845 model)?

What is your theory as to why the 50w Kagura sounded more powerful than the 120w 833?

Have you heard the Audio Music 833S Ultima amplifier (made in China by Fang)?

Did you happen to compare directly in the same system the MastersounD 2 x 845 with the Wavac 833?

Hello Mr Ron i will try to answer your questions:
What is your theory as to why the 50w Kagura sounded more powerful than the 120w 833?

-Amplifier specifications and measurements regarding power rating are not in line whit the reality of Power and Torque what amplifier can deliver when measured by our ears only! Transformers are the chain in this regard the extremely heavy and sophisticated Silver hand wound transformers of Kagura and the extremely heavy cooper hand wound transformers of Mastersound Monos makes them sound more powerful and whit more torque than technically can be measured for instant my old Audio Research Ref 750 monos specification 750 watt was in reality not more powerful than the 50 watt Kaguras to my ears.....

Have you heard the Audio Music 833S Ultima amplifier (made in China by Fang)?
No i didnt.

Did you happen to compare directly in the same system the Mastersound 2 x 845 with the Wavac 833?
I used to own the Wavac 833 monos some years ago but i remember exactly in which music passages which amplifiers reacts how.

 

[Exlibris]

Agreed. I think the driver stage was definitely not as robust as my Aries Cerat and the power supply, while not small (the JJ322 was 42kg) was not in the same league.

This is interesting. I hadn't heard "the driver stage makes the music," before reading this.

 

[morricab]

This is interesting. I hadn't heard "the driver stage makes the music," before reading this.

Did you get your Odeons yet?

 

[Exlibris]

Did you get your Odeons yet?

I did. I got them on Friday. I posted pictures and some comments over on the SET amp owners thread.

 

[flm09]

I've always been told that when you go parallel, you lose some of the SE virtue. Honestly, for years it steered me away from PSE amps. The Evolution 845 completely proved me wrong as I found no issues with a lost SE sonic identity and instead found much more ease to the presentation. I can also say that my favorite overall amp from MastersounD is the Dueventi - a parallel SEP amplifier. It might be the best el34 amplifier I've heard.

I think in either design the overall sound will boil down to how good the transformers are first and foremost.

How would you describe the sound? My favorite is Cayin cs-55a in Triode mode El-34. Have you heard the Cayin?

 

[mtemur]

There are single tube SET amplifiers, such the Wavac and the Audio Music (833 tube) and the NAT Magma New SE (GM-100 tube), in the 120 watt output range and there are parallel SET amplifiers, such as the MastersounD PF100 (four 845s), putting out 120 watts.

What are the sonic pros and cons of a high power single tube SET amplifier versus the same output level in a parallel SET amplifier?

A SET amplifier will probably sound better than the parallel SET amplier with same output rating. I think how the amplifier is designed and manufactured are more important than being SET or parallel SET.

I had a chance to listen some great SET amplifiers for a certain amount of time through the years. The best sounding ones for me are:
Kondo ongaku (it doesn’t need any explanation)
Kondo ongaku special (better dynamics and refinement over regular one)
AN ongaku (sounding totally different than Kondo but still wonderful)
Komuro 212e (very dynamic and lively)
NAF 845se is sounding great regarding the price and needs mentioning here.
For me by far the worst sounding SET amplifier is wavac 833 (All 833 models). I can describe them as congested, thin and unpowerful sounding amplifiers.

 

[morricab]

A SET amplifier will probably sound better than the parallel SET amplier with same output rating. I think how the amplifier is designed and manufactured are more important than being SET or parallel SET.

I had a chance to listen some great SET amplifiers for a certain amount of time through the years. The best sounding ones for me are:
Kondo ongaku (it doesn’t need any explanation)
Kondo ongaku special (better dynamics and refinement over regular one)
AN ongaku (sounding totally different than Kondo but still wonderful)
Komuro 212e (very dynamic and lively)
NAF 845se is sounding great regarding the price and needs mentioning here.
For me by far the worst sounding SET amplifier is wavac 833 (All 833 models). I can describe them as congested, thin and unpowerful sounding amplifiers.

Funny because the WAVAC HE805 is one of the best sounding ones I have heard...haven't heard the 833 models...

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have heard unison research 845 set , Audio note UK Set s ( probably parallel set / on very expensive audionote UK speakers ) and several others i cant remember .
From Kondo i have heard their pre amps ( may be also their power amps) cant remember .
It sounds all quit coloured to me without " oumph" which is essential for some " liveability " imo.

I ve owned Zanden 7000 300 B set myself for a couple of years , quit good but without power sound.

I now own CAT , neutral high power sound i absolutely love it .

I would love to give SET my last final shot and go for the LL1 sign ML3 combo , but if i still dont like it im left with a lot of boxes to sell

Ps. I did hear the lamm ML 2 / pre combo back in the day on kharma exquisites at Kharma in breda , it sounded quite good but it didn t stick

 

[mtemur]

Funny because the WAVAC HE805 is one of the best sounding ones I have heard

sorry my mistake, I forgot. that Wavac amplifier is a great sounding one. it’s a stereo power amplifier with original ISO TANGO transformers (amplifiers made before 2014). I heard it in different setups through the years and it always made me enjoy the music.
there is also a Wavac 300B stereo power amplifier with original ISO TANGO transformers and it sounds great too. but all the other ones like mono 300B’s and 805’s and other models including 833’s are not good. this is the most polite way to say what I feel about them.

 

[mtemur]

I would love to give SET my last final shot and go for the LL1 sign ML3 combo , but if i still dont like it im left with a lot of boxes to sell

Ps. I did hear the lamm ML 2 / pre combo back in the day on kharma exquisites at Kharma in breda , it sounded quite good but it didn t stick

Lamm ML 2.2 is one of best amplifiers I have ever heard. they’re very lush sounding amplifiers. I heard Lamm’s couple of times and more recently at a fellow audiophile’s home along with Kondo ongaku.
by the way my evaluations about amplifiers I mentioned here are based on long time listening on my friends’ systems not on audio shows. there is nothing wrong reaching to a conclusion by listening an amplifier at audio shows but for me former is better.

 

[True Triode Guy]

I did own the Wavac 833 amps the sound is lush it has a golden midrange and its everything but fast and explosief whit dynamics making live sounds also the 120 watt and sometimes its specified 150 watt is not what i expected take this power rating whit a pinch of salt.

I own the Kondo Kagura paralel single ended 845 tubes specification says its 50 watt but it is much more powerful than any 833 amp i have auditioned.

I own also a pair of Mastersound 845 mono amps whit 2x845 tubes each mono and it is unbelievable powerful also much more powerful than Wavac 833 monos.I suspect that the Mastersound whit 4x845 tubes each Chanel is a risky thing to match and make 2x845 tubes each chanel is 10x easier for the designer than 4x845 tubes each Chanel i didn't heard my self any amp anywhere that was successful in this regard.The home made transformers of Mastersound are so good that probably you have enough on the monos whit 2x845 tubes each mono they are a bargain for the price i do not know a better amp.... The Kagura is 20% better and 12x times more expensief by example!

Mastersound never make their own transformers, they make you believe that they wound the trannies but the real fact all Mastersounds amps the trannies are Made In China!!

 

[True Triode Guy]

Hello Mr Ron i will try to answer your questions:
What is your theory as to why the 50w Kagura sounded more powerful than the 120w 833?

-Amplifier specifications and measurements regarding power rating are not in line whit the reality of Power and Torque what amplifier can deliver when measured by our ears only! Transformers are the chain in this regard the extremely heavy and sophisticated Silver hand wound transformers of Kagura and the extremely heavy cooper hand wound transformers of Mastersound Monos makes them sound more powerful and whit more torque than technically can be measured for instant my old Audio Research Ref 750 monos specification 750 watt was in reality not more powerful than the 50 watt Kaguras to my ears.....

Have you heard the Audio Music 833S Ultima amplifier (made in China by Fang)?
No i didnt.

Did you happen to compare directly in the same system the Mastersound 2 x 845 with the Wavac 833?
I used to own the Wavac 833 monos some years ago but i remember exactly in which music passages which amplifiers reacts how.

FYI…. Mastersound amps don’t wind their own trannies, all Mastersound amps the trannies are made in china!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Just to be sure: the Kondo Kagura’s are 211 amps. And yes, they are very, very powerful set amps. Much more so if you (chassis) ground them, in my case with Tripoint devices.

Grounding does not increase power output.

 

[Audiocrack]

Grounding does not increase power output.

Of course not but lowering the noisefloor in a (very) significant way - be it through the preamp, loudspeakers, dac, server, cd-transport, etc - increases the perceived dynamics (very) significantly. Started grounding the Wadax reference dac very recently (I am still playing / burning this unit in) and the results are startling in many ways. Btw, I am not the only one who has experienced this phenomenon of (perceived) greater dynamics: you can read in it in several reviews of various grounding devices, Ron.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Btw, I am not the only one who has experienced this phenomenon of (perceived) greater dynamics: you can read in it in several reviews of various grounding devices, Ron.

Reports on the use of the so called "grounding devices" are often contradictory. The main point is that the devices change the sound and some people like it.

As often referred, manufacturers of high-end equipment use different type of grounding layouts in their equipment - IMHO it is hard to predict the interaction of the "grounding devices" with a system.