Which Speakers for Dartzeel NHB-108B and NHB-18NS Combo?

[bonzo75]

I would also plug in Stenheim Alumine 3 or better Alumine 5 into the picture as the designer of those (Jean Pascal) is using Dart beside Nagra to voice them and also they often do the shows together (last example Hong Kong few weeks ago). Personally listened to Alumine 5 at his demo room driven by Dart and it was magical.

Cheers;
G

Good suggestion. I want to listen to this. Does he have analog?

 

[bonzo75]

I also would like to know if i can drive my not so easy Thiel CS 3.7s with the 18NS+108B combo.
My speakers minimum impedance is 2.4 ohms.

108s don't drive tough to drive speakers well. They struggled with Wilson Alexia

 

[XV-1]

I've been told the 108 works well on horns since it has such low noise.

not hear it on horns myself.

Very true. A guy I know runs his AG Trio with Dart pre and power.

 

[Golum]

Good suggestion. I want to listen to this. Does he have analog?

Hi Ked;

Actually yes - source was analog with Thales TT - fell in love with that one despite the fact I'm digital (Lampi) guy .
If you are around beg of Sept something is already cooked with Jean Pascal and there will be few guys you know around (Wisnon, Chris) with Lampi Pacific in the picture as well...:b

Cheers;
G

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Ked;

Actually yes - source was analog with Thales TT - fell in love with that one despite the fact I'm digital (Lampi) guy .
If you are around beg of Sept something is already cooked with Jean Pascal and there will be few guys you know around (Wisnon, Chris) with Lampi Pacific in the picture as well...:b

Cheers;
G

What date?

 

[Golum]

What date?

You have a PM not to spam the thread here...

 

[redandgold]

108s don't drive tough to drive speakers well. They struggled with Wilson Alexia

I drive my Alexias with NHB458. If I push my speakers really hard with very loud and difficult music wide over 100W, the amps are getting to their limits. Even if only a little bit.

So I can imagine well if the 108 gets more trouble with WA Alexia or other impedance hungry speakers. But only if you want to push them. If you prefer moderate volume, everything is fine and darTZeel brings every speaker you own to the best.

 

[microstrip]

I drive my Alexias with NHB458. If I push my speakers really hard with very loud and difficult music wide over 100W, the amps are getting to their limits. Even if only a little bit.

So I can imagine well if the 108 gets more trouble with WA Alexia or other impedance hungry speakers. But only if you want to push them. If you prefer moderate volume, everything is fine and darTZeel brings every speaker you own to the best.

Probably the speakers / room, not the amplifier. I listened to NHB458 delivering peaks of around 1000W in the Magico Q5 and Q7 and it was not getting hard at all, just loud and powerful.

As far as I can see the NHB458 shows real delivered peak power, not just the computed peak power calculated from the voltage peak with an 8 ohm load, as 99% of the indicators do.

 

[bonzo75]

I drive my Alexias with NHB458. If I push my speakers really hard with very loud and difficult music wide over 100W, the amps are getting to their limits. Even if only a little bit.

So I can imagine well if the 108 gets more trouble with WA Alexia or other impedance hungry speakers. But only if you want to push them. If you prefer moderate volume, everything is fine and darTZeel brings every speaker you own to the best.

There will be a big difference between the 108 and 458. The 108 was swapped over to a constellation ( model above the inspiration) and the room just breathed more easily... The pre was still Dartzeel. And I am not saying the constellation had other sonic differences which were better, but just that it drove the speaker Mich more easily. With the 108 the struggle was obvious even before the swap. We listened around 85 to 90 Db, the softer parts would fall below

 

[redandgold]

In my opinion the darTZeel amps are the over all best sounding (SS) amps. They are very fast and detailed, offer a sharply rendered soundstage and in once they play very natural without any grain and have a great timing. I would not have any other amp.

But no amp is perfect, even for 30 or 200k. I realized pushing the amp to the limits with a impedance critical speaker like my Alexia (or a Marten Coltrane I heard), reaching the border regions the bass and heights are loosing a little bit of definition. Thats not much, but you can hear it.

I think with high efficient speakers or even speakers with „normal“ impedance you will never hear anything.

Why this effect occurs, no idea. I can only suppose it has to do with the technicals principals of darTZeel to reduce everything in the signal path radically (which is really good!) and in consequence the amps use only few transistors. The reduction of transistors has benefits concerning to the matching dilemma, but maybe is not so stable like an amp with 50 transistors.

But like I said the sound is outstanding and the amp makes so much headroom, I normally hear music in between 5 and 100 W and felt never I am missing something.

 

[Thieliste]

In my opinion the darTZeel amps are the over all best sounding (SS) amps. They are very fast and detailed, offer a sharply rendered soundstage and in once they play very natural without any grain and have a great timing. I would not have any other amp.

But no amp is perfect, even for 30 or 200k. I realized pushing the amp to the limits with a impedance critical speaker like my Alexia (or a Marten Coltrane I heard), reaching the border regions the bass and heights are loosing a little bit of definition. Thats not much, but you can hear it.

I think with high efficient speakers or even speakers with „normal“ impedance you will never hear anything.

Why this effect occurs, no idea. I can only suppose it has to do with the technicals principals of darTZeel to reduce everything in the signal path radically (which is really good!) and in consequence the amps use only few transistors. The reduction of transistors has benefits concerning to the matching dilemma, but maybe is not so stable like an amp with 50 transistors.

But like I said the sound is outstanding and the amp makes so much headroom, I normally hear music in between 5 and 100 W and felt never I am missing something.

I would have loved to choose the NHB-18NS + 108 model 2 for my rig but since my speakers are a little too difficult to drive i'd better look at things like the Ayre KX-R MX-R Twenty combo.
I don't have the budget for the NHB-458 but not many of us do anyway.

 

[JackD201]

Von Schweikert VR-55

 

[boonyarat]

I always demonstrate my system darTZeel NHB-108SCNP+ NHB-18NS and NHB-458 with KHARMA loudspeaker , sound was perfect with dynamic , details, so natural analog like . My customers also used NHB-458+NHB18NS with their new WILSON WAMM and very happy , the power on NHB-458 just more than enough .

 

[microstrip]

(...) Why this effect occurs, no idea. I can only suppose it has to do with the technicals principals of darTZeel to reduce everything in the signal path radically (which is really good!) and in consequence the amps use only few transistors. The reduction of transistors has benefits concerning to the matching dilemma, but maybe is not so stable like an amp with 50 transistors.(...)

Although I also appreciate a lot the sound quality of the Dartzeel's we have to look elsewhere for the reasons of it. The signal goes through twelve transistors in a NHB108 - many more than the so called simplistic designs. In many designs with many transistors these are not used in the signal path, but in supporting functions, such as current sources and voltage stabilization. BTW, in pushpull amplifiers the more simple the design is the more critical becomes the matching ...

 

[redandgold]

I always demonstrate my system darTZeel NHB-108SCNP+ NHB-18NS and NHB-458 with KHARMA loudspeaker , sound was perfect with dynamic , details, so natural analog like . My customers also used NHB-458+NHB18NS with their new WILSON WAMM and very happy , the power on NHB-458 just more than enough .

Hi Boon,

Everything is fine...

For me the sound is dynamic and detailed too. Otherwise I would have never spent a six figure amount and buy an darTZeel amp. I believe your customers are happy, I am happy too.

And yes, 450/800 W at 8/4 ohm are nominal a deep power buffer.

The only issue I mentioned is in extreme combinations of high volume and some difficult speakers the grip is not at same level like the rest of this fantastic amps. If this is the only topic, hey guys, you are the happiest man if you own one.

And thank you for your always fantastic photos!

 

[redandgold]

Although I also appreciate a lot the sound quality of the Dartzeel's we have to look elsewhere for the reasons of it. The signal goes through twelve transistors in a NHB108 - many more than the so called simplistic designs. In many designs with many transistors these are not used in the signal path, but in supporting functions, such as current sources and voltage stabilization. BTW, in pushpull amplifiers the more simple the design is the more critical becomes the matching ...

O.K.. You have another idea?

(My idea came from the warning of Hervé not to drop the impedance towards one ohm. E.g. Alexia S1 drops to 1.9 ohm and Alexx to 1.8 ohm. Thats not far away and in combination with bad phase and high volume it‘s not a shame to struggle.)

(Actually it is an issue for Wilson Audio and not for darTZeel, therefore WA worked around with Series 2)

 

[boonyarat]

Hi Boon,

Everything is fine...

For me the sound is dynamic and detailed too. Otherwise I would have never spent a six figure amount and buy an darTZeel amp. I believe your customers are happy, I am happy too.

And yes, 450/800 W at 8/4 ohm are nominal a deep power buffer.

The only issue I mentioned is in extreme combinations of high volume and some difficult speakers the grip is not at same level like the rest of this fantastic amps. If this is the only topic, hey guys, you are the happiest man if you own one.

And thank you for your always fantastic photos!

Hi ,

Not really any topic issue but still wonder a little bit as normally WILSON loudspeaker didn't need much power to drive . Anyways if the NHB-458 still cause problem on combination in your system then the new NHB-468 might be can fixed as it come out with much more power and better sound of course .

 

[manjy]

Finally got the Evolution MM2's.
Too soon to fully describe them but very very good out of the box!

 

[bazelio]

Finally got the Evolution MM2's.
Too soon to fully describe them but very very good out of the box!

Great choice!!

 

[fbhifi]

Evolution Acoustics speakers were primarily voiced with darTZeel electronics.

I’ve driven my EA MM3 Exacts with both the 108 (w/SCNP) and currently the 458s. Love the synergy between EA and dart. The 458s are extraordinary!