Whither Audio Research

[jadis]

Been an ARC user since the mid 80s (D115Mk2/SP10) till present day (160S). Been reading so many 'anxious' news these past few weeks and glad the light has shown up at the end of the tunnel. Somehow I had a feeling that ARC was not going down just like that. Thankfully it did not.

 

[Another Johnson]

Emotions and nostalgia aside, one has to soberly look at the future of tube gear in context of this event. Over the last 10-15 years, the tastes of the audiophile have shifted toward hard-to-drive speakers like wilson, magico,

This sort of statement seems typical of half the posters on this forum.

They do not know of the incredible solid state amps of 30 years ago … the D’Agostino era Krells for example. Instantaneous power available at 1 Ohm was only limited by the building’s breaker box.

These amps found a market because between Thiels, the assorted large stat panels, and other popular speakers that preceded these amps, the loads were often torturous.

Nevertheless ARC and CJ weren’t displaced by SS. They stayed on as the first love of many. They held their own and remain prized possessions of many audiophiles.

David A. Wilson would have snickered about the idea that Wilson’s were hard to drive. He once did a demo where he laid out crazy big and expensive amps where the audience would assume they were the drivers, and only revealed the much smaller, modest cost amps that were actually driving after the demo had driven the audience into ecstasy.

Wilsons are not hard to drive. Impedance on current models rarely drops below 2.5 Ohms. On the 4 Ohm taps of a good tube amp, this is perfectly reasonable. Most Wilson models run happily on 50 WPC. No you’re not going to fill a ballroom with sound, but it’s more than enough for a typical home installation.

Personal taste is a valid reason to like or not like something. If you’re not afan, that’s fine.

I think a lot of folks will be embarrassed after the new ownership is revealed. That some seem to have a deep seated desire to run ARC and other valve based companies into the ground for the purpose of recreational gossip isn’t surprising… but neither is it useful.

When this is actually over, there will be facts available and a legitimate business case can be developed.

Back in the ‘70s Bill Johnson was told by an engineer that he’d set the industry back 20 years by reintroducing tubes. As tube factories closed in the West, he tried to steer the company to SS, but reviewers would not have it. They loved his tube designs. Bill said he could build a SS amp that sounded as good as a tube amp, but that it’s harder to do, and more expensive.

McIntosh is another example. Gordon Gow thought tubes should be dead, but when he died the amp they built to commemorate his life was a tube amp. Today we see McIntosh hedging their bets with serial and parallel hybrid models that use both tubes and solid state.

If Tubes disappear, it won’t be because people don’t like them anymore. They will have been collateral damage in the foolish political games that plague the world.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Personal taste wise, whereas audio research , especially the ref 75, sounds sublime driving scaena and nola, it really can't drive a wilson , a magico, focal, sinus fiber, etc., unless someone likes a soft, tubey, non-dynamic sound.... but my personal tastes aside, the overall tastes in the hobby have shifted toward the more dynamic and highly detailed solid state. (...)

Insinuating and misleading, as usually, when addressing particular high-end brands of success ... Although the particular REF 75 has limited current and power for some speakers, the REF150 and higher power ARC units drive dynamically most Wilson or Sonus Faber speakers. ARC has high dynamics and detail.

BTW, we all know that experience at shows can be extremely misleading - most people seem to agree on it.

 

[PeterA]

The market has spoken... so the question is who will be buying tube gear, and audio research, in the future once they get a new owner?

I just bought an excellent tube phono stage and couldn’t be happier. My whole system is tubes with extremely efficient horn speakers. The sound is exceedingly dynamic.

 

[caesar]

I just bought an excellent tube phono stage and couldn’t be happier. My whole system is tubes with extremely efficient horn speakers.

how many guys like you are there?

why is arc struggling?

 

[caesar]

Insinuating and misleading, as usually, when addressing particular high-end brands of success ... Although the particular REF 75 has limited current and power for some speakers, the REF150 and higher power ARC units drive dynamically most Wilson or Sonus Faber speakers. ARC has high dynamics and detail.

BTW, we all know that experience at shows can be extremely misleading - most people seem to agree on it.

why are you arguing about personal taste? why not look at how the market has spoken?

why are you assuming this is only at shows? many arc dealers carry wilson and obvioiusly , and have history and passion for both brands. Obviously, they couldn't sell it. otherwise arc wouldn't be in this predicament?

are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

[Another Johnson]

how many guys like you are there?

why is arc struggling?

ARC’s owner got squeezed in the current rising interest rate situation. He’s a guy, not a corporation. The company has not “struggled.” Manufacturing, design, marketing, customer service, technical service, etc have not missed a lick.

 

[caesar]

ARC’s owner got squeezed in the current rising interest rate situation. He’s a guy, not a corporation. The company has not “struggled.” Manufacturing, design, marketing, customer service, technical service, etc have not missed a lick.

if their sales - and all tube gear sales - were going through the roof, per my earlier post, this wouldn't be happening. I love tubes. have no problem with arc... let's put emotions aside and look at reality..

let's revisit this in a year or 2

 

[Another Johnson]

if their sales - and all tube gear sales - were going through the roof, per my earlier post, this wouldn't be happening. I love tubes. have no problem with arc... let's put emotions aside and look at reality..

let's revisit this in a year or 2

I agree that it can be revisited more productively in a year or two.
Prices held during this period of uncertainty. They are taking orders and shipping orders. eBay and Audiogon have not seen much change. Dealers are not blowing things out.
This is a personal tragedy, not a corporate failure.

 

[PeterA]

how many guys like you are there?

why is arc struggling?

I do not disagree with you Cesar. I was just answering your question about who would buy tube gear. I know five people with full Lamm set ups. I know it is not many but they all love the sound.

I cannot tell you why ARC is struggling. No idea.

 

[caesar]

I do not disagree with you Cesar. I was just answering your question about who would buy tube gear. I know five people with full Lamm set ups. I know it is not many but they all love the sound.

I cannot tell you why ARC is struggling. No idea.

Hey Peter, I buy tube gear also. my point is that tastes have shifted toward ch, soulution, and the like, and the tube companies have gotten smaller and more artisinal.

And I absolutely love the brand you use, Lamm. How are they doing since the heart breaking news of their owner passing?

 

[PeterA]

Hey Peter, I buy tube gear also. my point is that tastes have shifted toward ch, soulution, and the like, and the tube companies have gotten smaller and more artisinal.

And I absolutely love the brand you use, Lamm. How are they doing since the heart breaking news of their owner passing?

I can’t really answer that question. I know they’ve moved to Miami and the new factory is operating. They are doing repairs and they built my LP1 Sig phono. Yes, Vladimir‘s passing was tragic news.

 

[caesar]

I can’t really answer that question. I know they’ve moved to Miami and the new factory is operating. They are doing repairs and they built my LP1 Sig phono. Yes, Vladimir‘s passing was tragic news.

Wonderful to hear, Peter. Enjoy

 

[Ron Resnick]

the tube companies have gotten smaller and more artisinal.

I'm not sure what this view is based on. ARC, Manley, VAC, VTL continue to produce their big, long-standing, high power tube amplifiers among many other products. I don't know who is getting smaller and more artisanal.

 

[Gregadd]

not to mention amazon sends me notices on tube knocks daily.

 

[Gregadd]

I don't think I have ever owned an efficient speaker. Wilson's are highly efficient.

 

[tima]

Over the last 10-15 years, the tastes of the audiophile have shifted toward hard-to-drive speakers like wilson, magico, and others. there has been a bunch of new SS amplification companies like ch precision, soulution, constellation, etc., pop up that have tickled the passions of audiophiles and the interests of "audio journalists"...

It is a interesting phenomenon. I am uncertain that it is the "tastes of the audiophile" that have led the market in this direction or if it is the market that has led the tastes of audiophile.

There seems to be something of a cycle between speaker builders and amplifier manufacturers. I don't know that one leads or responds to the other, but as amplifiers become more powerful speakers become less sensitive and vice versa. By specs alone, speakers from established manufacturers have maybe been more generally stable in terms of sensitivity and nominal ohms though minimum ohms has dropped.

I don't see audiophiles demanding less sensitivie speakers. I can see some audiophiles attracted to higher powered amps simply from the naive 'bigger is better' 'more power is better' attitude -- hence solid state.

The magazines predicated on 'newer is better' -- modern TAS and Stereophile -- have 'new' as their product to sell themselves. (Dudley may have been a slight exception in a few cases.) Thus we get the cycle of market churn. Is product cycle turnover getting shorter? Every 'n' years a model is replaced with the newer model that some feel is necessary to keep the model and brand before the public. "I just got the latest X" certainly drives forum discussion, while talk of past products is decried by some here as vintage fetishism.

ARC is an example here. They delivered the Ref 2 and Ref 5 models then what, 2 years later? they come up with the 2SE and 5SE 'upgrades'. They have done the same with the succeeding Ref 3 and Ref 6, closely followed by 3SE and 6SE. I see this not in terms of new discoveries but as a planned strategy. In some circles this approach has become tiresome and buyers are opting out.

 

[jadis]

The magazines predicated on 'newer is better' -- modern TAS and Stereophile -- have 'new' as their product to sell themselves. (Dudley may have been a slight exception in a few cases.) Thus we get the cycle of market churn. Is product cycle turnover getting shorter? Every 'n' years a model is replaced with the newer model that some feel is necessary to keep the model and brand before the public. "I just got the latest X" certainly drives forum discussion, while talk of past products is decried by some here as vintage fetishism.

ARC is an example here. They delivered the Ref 2 and Ref 5 models then what, 2 years later? they come up with the 2SE and 5SE 'upgrades'. They have done the same with the succeeding Ref 3 and Ref 6, closely followed by 3SE and 6SE. I see this not in terms of new discoveries but as a planned strategy. In some circles this approach has become tiresome and buyers are opting out.

Agree with this point. I am not a fan of lightning fast 'upgrades' of MK2 to 3 etc. And ARC has been doing this since the mid 80s as far as I can remember. I was just lucky to come in at the 'right' time to purchase the D115 MK2 and the SP10 Mk2. A few years later, a newbie friend got into audio and wanted all of the components to be the top of the line. So he got the SP11, maybe an MK2 , and then after a year or so, he found out that there was a another model that 'topped' his preamp, the SP15. He told me, if this goes one, I will quit the audio hobby. And a few years after, he really left the hobby.

 

[AudioAbe]

It seems to me a generalisation too far to say ‘tubes are dead’ because of difficulties felt by ARC, the full reasons for which are still not fully known.
There is clearly still a market for tube based audio products. The success of PrimaLuma at the more affordable end of the market and very many tube based amplifiers at the higher end at any Audio Show will testify that there is still a market for tubes.
High end audio is a niche industry, and so companies are more vulnerable than those in larger markets.
Decrying ‘tubes are dead’ seems similar to ‘vinyl is dead’ 15-20 years ago. I wouldn’t be so quick to right them off.

 

[tima]

Agree with this point. I am not a fan of lightning fast 'upgrades' of MK2 to 3 etc. And ARC has been doing this since the mid 80s as far as I can remember. I was just lucky to come in at the 'right' time to purchase the D115 MK2 and the SP10 Mk2. A few years later, a newbie friend got into audio and wanted all of the components to be the top of the line. So he got the SP11, maybe an MK2 , and then after a year or so, he found out that there was a another model that 'topped' his preamp, the SP15. He told me, if this goes one, I will quit the audio hobby. And a few years after, he really left the hobby.

Yes. Upgrades may bring discernible differences but in many cases the increment of improvement is far from revolutionary. A few electronics manufacturers wisely allowed factory upgrades to existing units -- ARC did some of that, Atma-Sphere comes to mind -- though it can be a pita to manage. Occasionally turntables, rarely speakers, cables never? Imo there is still a desire/need by some to be current with the latest -- part of that perhaps driven by audio forum social credit scoring.