Why do Martin Logans sound lean/ thin (transparent) compared to other stats?

[Audioseduction]

I have had three different MartinLogan speakers over the last 28 years, and I have heard the Neolith at a show, so I would like to try to reconcile some of the views on this thread because I think some of the posts in this thread talk past each other without understanding each other (and, in my opinion, without understanding the real issue).

1) I believe there are five primary criticisms of MartinLogan speakers A) - E) and one commonly proposed solution F):

A) The electrostatic panel sounds a little thin or lean and does not present singers and instruments with the corporeal incarnation and "body" of ribbons and, especially, of conventional dynamic drivers.

B) The CLX has little to no bass.

C) The CLX is not very dynamic.

D) In the hybrid models there is an audible discontinuity between the electrostatic panel and the woofer.

E) The hybrid models do not reproduce low frequencies with the same resolution, detail and texture with which the electrostatic panel reproduces middle and high frequencies, or with the same resolution, detail and texture with which ribbon and magnetic planar panels reproduce low frequencies.

F) Adding a subwoofer to the CLX solves the issues of A) thinness/leanness/lack of "body," B) lack of bass and C) lack of dynamics.

2) I personally think that A) the electrostatic panel is a little thin and lean and lacking "body," B) the CLX lacks bass (of course it lacks bass -- the -3dB spec is 55 hz) and C) the CLX is not very dynamic all are accurate.

3) For whatever reason I appear to be not sensitive to the discontinuity between the ML electrostatic panel and the woofer (I used the Monolith III for many years and I did not have a big problem with the discontinuity). D) is not an issue for me.

4) I think E) is accurate. The woofer in the ML hybrids cannot reproduce low frequencies with the resolution, texture and detail of a Magnepan panel or an Analysis Audio panel or a full-range ribbon. If that is your sonic priority you will have to go with a planar speaker which uses a large panel to reproduce 200 to 400 Hz (but, of course, you will be giving up cone excursion impact below 100 Hz).

5) I think people talk past each other on this subject because they try to solve the thinness/leanness/lack of body issue with a subwoofer. But I think the thinness/leanness/lack of body is due to the absence of a large magnetic planar driver, or a decent-sized conventional driver, covering 200 to 400 Hz. I do not believe that any subwoofer to which the signal is crossed over at 100 Hz or 80 Hz or 60 Hz is going to address the lack of richness and body in the upper base/lower midrange region of the ML electrostatic panel.

6) Here is my theory to explain why even a four tower SOTA system such as the mighty Genesis 1.1 may have a weakness in the upper bass/lower midrange region: No matter how herculean the base towers are, if the crossover to a planar system occurs no higher than at about 100 Hz, then there is a richness and weight and body and cone excursion impact deficit in the critical 200 Hz to 400 Hz range. Even the amazing big Genesis woofer towers may roll off too quickly to provide impact at 400 hz, and no midrange ribbon (let alone an electrostatic panel) is going to provide the body and richness to satisfy us in the region of 200 to 400 Hz of the dual 9" drivers of the Rockport Arrakis or the 13" woofer of a Big Wilson or the four 11" woofers of the Evolution Acoustics MM7, etc.

Thus I believe the discussion about subwoofers to solve the thinness/leanness/lack of body of the CLX is inapposite and misplaced.

This theory is why I think the MartinLogan Neolith may be a brilliant design if its 12" driver -- specifically covering 60 - 400 hz (higher than any ML speaker before it) -- provides in an ESL hybrid almost exactly the warmth and weight and body and richness and cone excursion impact we get in that frequency range from the best dynamic driver speakers.

Yes, this means I am willing to sacrifice E) to get cone excursion impact.

(D) In the hybrid models there is an audible discontinuity between the electrostatic panel and the woofer.)

Not true for the Summit X as it uses the Vojtko Voiced crossover network to apply variable phasing near the crossover point. To me the Summit X performs better then any box or horn speaker I have ever heard. Powering them with Pass XA160.5 they do not sound thin at all.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Andrew, I agree that bass panels and multiple subwoofers are excellent approaches.

 

[awsmone]

The appeal of Martin Logan belies the objective measurements of it. Here is a random example:

Clearly above 2 Khz, performance goes to hell. There is nothing remotely high fidelity about a loudspeaker that goes nuts that way. When I listened to them blind, I thought the speaker was a broken one put in there as a control to catch deaf people . Whereas prior to that, I thought they were a very good speaker. Now sighted I can hear the same issues and no longer like their sound.

i don't know where this trace is taken from...but looks like a stereophile trace

anyone used to measuring speakers will tell you that measuring large panel speakers is quite difficult for many physical reasons

The use of the word "objective' here is pretty loose

If this is a stereophile's measurement you might like to also mention the many caveats in those measurements :- in order to be objective

 

[bonzo75]

Now sighted I can hear the same issues and no longer like their sound.

Try with ears covered and eyes open. No offence, but the 1k used Acoustats, Quads, and Logans are all much better than the speakers you own despite shortcomings in each. If the measurements show otherwise, then they haven't been taken correctly. I would seriously suggest going to a lot of live concerts as a remedy.

 

[Gregadd]

I rhink we have an example why speaker measurements can be the most dishonerst and misleading in the industry. You could use several techniques to smooth that curve. Over the years I 've looked at just about every ML review written. No surprises.

 

[Ron Resnick]

e

(D) In the hybrid models there is an audible discontinuity between the electrostatic panel and the woofer.)

Not true for the Summit X as it uses the Vojtko Voiced crossover network . . .

I wrote that that is one of the common criticisms of the ML hybrids. If you read the entire post you will see that I did not write that I believe that criticism to be true.

 

[microstrip]

(...)

Perceived balance of a speaker comes from the way we perceive the different energies at different frequencies a speaker gives into a room

CLXs have a very large mid treble panel, hence a lot of energy in this band, unless coupled with a lot of bass energy the perceived balance will seem thin, also panels lose energy in a linear rather than inverse square relationship, so this mid treble balance will be projected further into the room

Great summary - also applies to SoundLab's, unless we manage to couple them with the room in the bass zone.

 

[awsmone]

### if u take off the panel over the power supply after leaving clx disconnected from the mains overnight to the outer edge is crossover boards on top are two
red switches the more posterior boost bass 1 db and the second a further 2 db. This is not mentioned in the manual i believe. These change the balance and warmth .

 

[microstrip]

We must remember that SoundLab's have an enormous adjustment capability : 4 levels of bass, 4 levels of medium, up to -6dB continuous adjustment of treble. If they are not properly adjusted and amplified they can sound really thin and lean.

The Quad ESL63 are known to sound fuller than suggested by the measurements because of frame resonances around 80Hz. Many people used to remove the perforated metal grille to get a more "transparent" sound - they were mainly listening to the higher amplitude resonance of the frames - I remember I was horrified when I measured them with and without metal grille!

I have read that the rigid Quad ESL63's modified by Alastair Robertson-Aikman in the SME listening room sound leaner than the standard ones - it is one of the reasons they are used in double pairs to get a fuller sound.

 

[Argonaut]

### if u take off the panel over the power supply after leaving clx disconnected from the mains overnight to the outer edge is crossover boards on top are two
red switches the more posterior boost bass 1 db and the second a further 2 db. This is not mentioned in the manual i believe. These change the balance and warmth .

a... Do you have a preference setting yourself?

Have you ever given thought to upgrading some of the crossover and PSU components ? For my part I may well do so once the manufacturer warrenty expires. I have performed such surgery on a number of previous ESL's from 63's through to 2805's , ML CLS MKIIz etc etc, all in varying degree sounded somewhat improved for a little DIY and a few more £€$ spent on those components that stock.

 

[awsmone]

Hi I have it on 3 Db at moment as in a very absorbing room
Yes agree the three big caps could easily be replaced in crossover no problem ...
And thought given to upgrading signal wires and binding posts
The power board could be worked on but requires skill

 

[Folsom]

The ones I heard recently (new models) were anything but thin.

 

[awsmone]

new second system in library

 

[Argonaut]

Love the clean system lines there a... you are most likely aware of the following CLX crossover mod thread over on DIY,

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/179196-martin-logan-clx-mods.html