Why do most audiophiles don't like active speakers ?

[gleeds]

Did you also listen to their products?

I did. They were featuring their BM Jubile, an interesting line array specifically designed to be living room friendly and mitigate room interaction. The sound was spacious, detailed and engaging in a relatively large room. Given the digital nature of their system they were using the excellent Thiel turntable and tonearm which I found interesting. RIAA done in the digital domain. All drivers are of their own design and manufacturer including two 12" woofers in the base that radiate energy from slots on the rear of the speaker, eight midrange drivers and a tweeter they refer to as Fraunhofer cylindrical wave radiators. Definitely different!

 

[ecwl]

I think I hang out at stereo stores way too often but maybe I have some insights on what different customers want because I’ve found my taste very divergent from theirs. With respect to active speakers, I’ve seen customers not liking them basically for 3 primary reasons, usually in this order:
1) They genuinely hear something that’s inferior in the active speakers compared to passive systems they know
2) They hear something that is actually a technically superior aspect of active speakers and they don’t like what they hear
3) They just want to mix and match their system
This is even if they can’t always describe exactly what is bothering them from what they’re hearing

For #1, it can be due to driver distortion, lower SNR from amplifier, poor transient accuracy from amplifier, increased jitter from the DAC, noise floor modulation from the DAC, RF noise that goes through the DAC/amp
For #2, people sometimes don’t like a ”better“/smoother/more accurate frequency response, lack of clipping, lack of crossover artifacts, higher dynamic range, lack of harmonic distortions.

I think active speaker enthusiasts tend to focus on #2 and ignore #1 or just can’t hear the issues related to #1. But I also acknowledge that many passive speaker listeners ignore specific types of distortions and sometimes learn to love those distortions that active speakers often eliminate.

But the way I see it is that, audiophilia is a hobby so people should spend their money on whatever they like.

 

[sigbergaudio]

There are quite a few new companies with innovative active speakers coming out of the woodworks the last few years, so my impression is that the landscape of active speakers is changing. So perhaps it will change slowly over time? In addition to those mentioned, Dutch&Dutch, Kii, Mesanovic, Kef (not new company but interesting actives), Grimm, etc.

 

[KeithR]

This was a big topic on www.audioreview.com as far back as 20 years ago. It really hasn’t changed although some high echelon guys like YG have tried. Magicos horn was active iirc. Most philes like to tinker and active just doesn’t allow for that.

 

[Robh3606]

This was a big topic on www.audioreview.com as far back as 20 years ago. It really hasn’t changed although some high echelon guys like YG have tried. Magicos horn was active iirc. Most philes like to tinker and active just doesn’t allow for that.

Hello Keith

You seem to have a very narrow view of what actual active systems can be. To say that audiophiles don't like them because they can't tinker may be true for all in one box systems but active speaker systems are not limited to just that.

Damn talk about tinkering! So what if you could pick your own drivers, build your own speakers, select you own amps, choose what active crossover to use be it analog or digital??

Then decide if you are just going to use the crossovers as simple band-pass and then use passive component's for response tailoring.

After you run the system a while you decide to try different drivers??

If you build a traditional full up active system not using a one box solution the options for "tinkering" is unlimited and far beyond what you could do with any "normal" system.

Rob

 

[cjf]

I think Actives are a nice option and I use a pair in an office system (Genelec 8020D's). No complaints.

Personally I don't like the idea of many Actives (not all) coming with built in AD/DA converters. I'm fine with the Amp being baked in but beyond that I think a built in AD/DA just hamstrings the speakers flexibility. At least at this point in time. I'm not aware of any that can process anything above 24/192...if your lucky. Most are well below that; including some popular ones that can only muster a 24/48 signal (Dutch & Dutch unless something has changed recently).

Alternatively, I guess if you don't already own a DAC you like today and could care less about musical content above 24/192 then I see no reason to not consider them. If I were staring over from scratch today there are a few that I would consider strongly like these Genelec 8381a's below. Only $32K each..gulp!

In my own system I Up/Down Sample everything to 24/192 anyway so I don't have an issue with this "limitation" but the difference is that my passive speaker allows me the choice of doing this or not. With many Actives you aren't given much of a choice, the signal is going to pass thru additional AD/DA stages upon arrival/exit whether you like it or not.

I believe the above is a big reason for Actives not being very popular in the Audiophile world..at least not yet. I don't doubt that some day this may change but probably not in my lifetime.

 

[stehno]

The question is in the title

I can think of several reasons why some might not appreciate active speakers and some have already been listed here but there is another most important reason.

Presumably everybody (except me) in this thread and forum is committed to the vibration isolation methodology where the isolationist is supposedly most concerned about unwanted vibrations creeping up from the floor (floor-borne vibrations) into their racking system and negatively impacting the sonic performance of their amplifiers and other components.

Yet not a single poster or observer thus far has expressed cocnerns about moving amplifiers into the speaker cabinet i.e. the epicenter of one continuous and most severe earthquake.

The potential implications of this silence are numeorus and are all performance related and the sole reason why I would never consider an active speaker design and brings into question the integrity of any designer and enthusiast indulging in such designs.

 

[Al M.]

I can think of several reasons why some might not appreciate active speakers and some have already been listed here but there is another most important reason.

Presumably everybody (except me) in this thread and forum is committed to the vibration isolation methodology where the isolationist is supposedly most concerned about unwanted vibrations creeping up from the floor (floor-borne vibrations) into their racking system and negatively impacting the sonic performance of their amplifiers and other components.

Yet not a single poster or observer thus far has expressed cocnerns about moving amplifiers into the speaker cabinet i.e. the epicenter of one continuous and most severe earthquake.

The potential implications of this silence are numeorus and are all performance related and the sole reason why I would never consider an active speaker design and brings into question the integrity of any designer and enthusiast indulging in such designs.

You bring up an important point here, thanks.

Hadn't thought about that; not that I have spent much time thinking about active speakers anyway.

 

[gleeds]

Stenho, so long as the DAC is not internal to the speaker I have not found any instance where the internal vibrations of the speaker have had a negative effect on the sound produced by the amplifiers. Many would argue micro-vibrations most seriously impact low-level signal amplification and my ear and years of experience with active speakers bears that out. The limitation I hear of active amplification have always been a case of additional D/A conversion, poorly designed DACs or DSP solutions or inferior amplification (mainly digital. Recording studios and engineers have long preferred active amplification) and felt audiophiles need not apply if they do not understand the benefits of placing the amplifiers at the voice coil provides.

I agree with Keith that most audiophiles prefer to mix and match their components and sonic signatures but would add many of us (myself included are still skeptical of DSP solutions, especially the lesser ones developed for the professional market.

A few notable new products are Avantgarde's iTron active amplification, DEQX newest DSP tri-band active amp solution preamplifier and Airplain of Switzerland newly released speakers utilizing Puri-Fi internal amplifiers built into stainless steel enclosures and a companion pre-amplifier with a complete Weiss digital engine as an external front-end. Legacy's Wavelet system, and also Linn and Meridian system that have been at the forefront of digital amplification for over a decade.

Finally, active systems will keep advancing and will continue to co-exist nicely with good old fashioned non-active two channel systems. A final example would be Kryon, featuring amplification and DSP outside the speakers and now using eight discrete channels of Halcro amplification. I heard their early solutions using first generation Hypex amplifiers and was impressed. Now some 10 years later I imagine these powered actively filtered dipoles are at the edge of the art.

Note, I have no commercial affiliation with any of the firms, just my ongoing curiosity for the ever advancing technology from my 10 years building custom active systems before founding Hear This.

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[DasguteOhr]

I can think of several reasons why some might not appreciate active speakers and some have already been listed here but there is another most important reason.

Presumably everybody (except me) in this thread and forum is committed to the vibration isolation methodology where the isolationist is supposedly most concerned about unwanted vibrations creeping up from the floor (floor-borne vibrations) into their racking system and negatively impacting the sonic performance of their amplifiers and other components.

Yet not a single poster or observer thus far has expressed cocnerns about moving amplifiers into the speaker cabinet i.e. the epicenter of one continuous and most severe earthquake.

The potential implications of this silence are numeorus and are all performance related and the sole reason why I would never consider an active speaker design and brings into question the integrity of any designer and enthusiast indulging in such designs.

Good manufacturers have addressed this problem, now you have no more excuses.
geithain rl 901k1 with seperate amp.

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - ME 901K1

 

[andromedaaudio]

FM acoustics

 

[stehno]

Stenho, so long as the DAC is not internal to the speaker I have not found any instance where the internal vibrations of the speaker have had a negative effect on the sound produced by the amplifiers. Many would argue micro-vibrations most seriously impact low-level signal amplification and my ear and years of experience with active speakers bears that out. The limitation I hear of active amplification have always been a case of additional D/A conversion, poorly designed DACs or DSP solutions or inferior amplification (mainly digital. Recording studios and engineers have long preferred active amplification) and felt audiophiles need not apply if they do not understand the benefits of placing the amplifiers at the voice coil provides.

I agree with Keith that most audiophiles prefer to mix and match their components and sonic signatures but would add many of us (myself included are still skeptical of DSP solutions, especially the lesser ones developed for the professional market.

A few notable new products are Avantgarde's iTron active amplification, DEQX newest DSP tri-band active amp solution preamplifier and Airplain of Switzerland newly released speakers utilizing Puri-Fi internal amplifiers built into stainless steel enclosures and a companion pre-amplifier with a complete Weiss digital engine as an external front-end. Legacy's Wavelet system, and also Linn and Meridian system that have been at the forefront of digital amplification for over a decade.

Finally, active systems will keep advancing and will continue to co-exist nicely with good old fashioned non-active two channel systems. A final example would be Kryon, featuring amplification and DSP outside the speakers and now using eight discrete channels of Halcro amplification. I heard their early solutions using first generation Hypex amplifiers and was impressed. Now some 10 years later I imagine these powered actively filtered dipoles are at the edge of the art.

Note, I have no commercial affiliation with any of the firms, just my ongoing curiosity for the ever advancing technology from my 10 years building custom active systems before founding Hear This.

...

We all have our limited experiences to draw from including speaker designers, right?

 

[stehno]

Good manufacturers have addressed this problem, now you have no more excuses.
geithain rl 901k1 with seperate amp.

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - ME 901K1

View attachment 120534

Says who? The speaker designer?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Says who? The speaker designer?

No..you're talking to me. and you never heard such a good active loudspeaker anyway.
You won't anyway because you categorically refuse. Bye

 

[stehno]

No..you're talking to me. and you never heard such a good active loudspeaker anyway.
You won't anyway because you categorically refuse. Bye

Oh, my bad. I somehow missed the implication that you hold expertise in both speaker design and vibration mgmt as well as the combination thereof.

Not mention your being some type of clairvoyant since you know what speakers I've heard / not heard.

Do tell.

 

[gleeds]

Oh, my bad. I somehow missed the implication that you hold expertise in both speaker design and vibration mgmt as well as the combination thereof.

Not mention your being some type of clairvoyant since you know what speakers I've heard / not heard.

Do tell.

 

[KPC]

Do powered subwoofers count?

 

[stehno]

Do powered subwoofers count?

Good question and IMO, absolutely. I was gonna mention it in my original post but doing so would have clouded my original point a bit, especially since I own 2 powered subs.

I think it worth noting that there are very few choices for passive subs these days and the potential can of worms that go with passive subs. But a powered / active sub's performance ought to suffer likewise and ought to be just as performance limiting for the fequency range it covers.

 

[Klonk]

Good manufacturers have addressed this problem, now you have no more excuses.
geithain rl 901k1 with seperate amp.

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - ME 901K1

View attachment 120534

I have heard Geithains many times and I think they are fantastic. Currently I am looking at the Geithain RL906 for a small office system. They also have great subwoofers.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Oh, my bad. I somehow missed the implication that you hold expertise in both speaker design and vibration mgmt as well as the combination thereof.

Not mention your being some type of clairvoyant since you know what speakers I've heard / not heard.

Do tell.

I don't need an expert, but I can handle measuring devices. You get an accelerometer from Nti and you'll know what's going on in 10 minutes.price 4k€

Schwingungsmesser | NTi Audio

Zubehör für den Schwingungsmesser

If you have ever spoken to Mr. Kiesler (ME Geithain), who has been building loudspeakers for 60 years, then you know that you are getting quality. They equip broadcasters, the German Bundestag and for example, the Elbphilharmonie with their speakers and sound technology.
Then tell me which active speakers you had at home, I'm open-minded and want to learn something.

P.S
If you want to see the largest anechoic chamber in Europe you have to visit Geithain. very interesting