Why do people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear

[stehno]

I am always amazed when people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear. Are these people just Into nostalgia or are they In denial?

There are several possibilities and none of them are positive.

1. The vintage owner's hearing has been compromised.
2. The vintage owner's ability to discern / interpret what he hears is lacking.
3. The vintage owner is a musician. They think everything sounds fabulous.
4. It's confirmation that from a performance perspective high-end audio remains very much in its infancy.

 

[Folsom]

Vintage speakers aren't very good. But there's actually vintage amplifiers and preamplifiers that are better than numerous high end stuff today, because the designer really knew his ****. However it's not a long list by any means. Most of it isn't really that great. Things were much more budget repressed back in the day so no matter how good someone was, it's unlikely they got to make what they were capable of making.

 

[ddk]

There are several possibilities and none of them are positive.

1. The vintage owner's hearing has been compromised.
2. The vintage owner's ability to discern / interpret what he hears is lacking.
3. The vintage owner is a musician. They think everything sounds fabulous.
4. It's confirmation that from a performance perspective high-end audio remains very much in its infancy.

Vintage speakers aren't very good. But there's actually vintage amplifiers and preamplifiers that are better than numerous high end stuff today, because the designer really knew his ****. However it's not a long list by any means. Most of it isn't really that great. Things were much more budget repressed back in the day so no matter how good someone was, it's unlikely they got to make what they were capable of making.

david

 

[Folsom]

Useful contribution David...

 

[sbo6]

1 word - Nostalgia.

 

[Al M.]

But there's actually vintage amplifiers and preamplifiers that are better than numerous high end stuff today, because the designer really knew his ****. However it's not a long list by any means. Most of it isn't really that great. Things were much more budget repressed back in the day so no matter how good someone was, it's unlikely they got to make what they were capable of making.

I have vintage amps, design 1986 (bought 1991): Audio Innovations Second Audio monoblocks (push-pull triode, 2 x 15 W, see my system thread in signature). However, they have been thoroughly upgraded with modern, superior parts, and probably there is hardly any original part left, while the amplification design itself is not modified. The one thing that has been greatly improved over the original design are the power supplies. The amps are now fed by external BorderPatrol MB power supplies that are far, far better than the original internal ones.

The great amplification design is now implemented quite optimally, in a manner that the initial, compromised incarnation of the design just could not accomplish.

All this probably speaks to your point, Folsom.

***

The amps were designed by Peter Qvortrup, now Audio Note.

 

[Folsom]

It does. People in the past were not stupid. If they were, our audio would suck today. But there's no denying it, modern capacitors are utterly superior, along with many other parts.

 

[bonzo75]

Its a mix. Restored apogees use vintage design, though not that old, with modern caps. Yet the thing is some vintage is superior because the objectives then were different. They were not trying to cater to a small bunch of audiophiles who cared about size and budget and WAF. Western electric drivers were designed with a lot of budget from bell labs and government backing to create that sound breakthrough, an R&D process that audiophile companies, small timers in comparison, will never be able to match. Same with EMT. It is known to have way more technical expertise backing it those days, then is possible for an audiophile company today - because then the professionals, recording engineers, and the industry in general required it - today such turntables are not required at all, nor are the records, except to cater to a select few hobbyists - not much incentive. The incentive today lies in Spotify, tidal, etc

 

[Folsom]

Interesting point... There's a lot of fabulous sounding albums dating all the way back into the 30's... I mean they sound good by today's standards. Well actually they surpass the common ones. The engineers that worked on the recording side of equipment could not have been dumb.

Altec speakers are still preferred by some people today, and some of them are people that can afford anything thing they damn well please. And those are old.

 

[bonzo75]

The point is that while modern tech usually surpasses older, the incentives today might not be the same as they were before...in our hobby the incentives today are to cater to a small number of audiophiles. While at some point back then, our type of gear was the ipod and Spotify of those days

 

[TBone]

View attachment 28073

 

[kaeksen]

Vintage speakers aren't very good. But there's actually vintage amplifiers and preamplifiers that are better than numerous high end stuff today, because the designer really knew his ****. However it's not a long list by any means. Most of it isn't really that great. Things were much more budget repressed back in the day so no matter how good someone was, it's unlikely they got to make what they were capable of making.

Vintage speakers can be very good, i own sonus faber electa amator II and beat lots of fresh speakers, easy.

 

[jazdoc]

I own a phono preamp designed around the 56 triode tube and a line stage designed around the 71a tube. Both use 1940's vintage mercury vapor rectifiers. I enjoy amplification that uses 6SN7 drivers (my preference are Sylvania 3 hole plates from 1942) and El34 output tubes (can't beat the 1960's Mullard xf2's!). No complaints here...

 

[Al M.]

I own a phono preamp designed around the 56 triode tube and a line stage designed around the 71a tube. Both use 1940's vintage mercury vapor rectifiers. I enjoy amplification that uses 6SN7 drivers (my preference are Sylvania 3 hole plates from 1942) and El34 output tubes (can't beat the 1960's Mullard xf2's!). No complaints here...

I now also have Sylvania NOS (New Old Stock) driver tubes from the 1960's in my amps. At least as good, probably better than the currently produced JJ goldpin tubes that I had before. My external power supplies also use NOS tubes from the 1960s for rectification (I stocked up bigtime on those tubes).

 

[NorthStar]

This is a cool thread, fun to read. :b

Is vintage audio gear better than new retro designs? Of course not, generally, we have evolved in the last fifty years plus. ...Parts are better today, designs used computer help and more advanced measuring tools.

Still, love for vintage audio gear will never die; that's the best part of this story. ...The looks, the romance, the love affair, and even "some" of the vintage gear sound much better than lots of crappy brand new gear. It all depends...
Some new audio gear is built to break down real fast.

But yes, in vast general, quality for quality between the past and the present, we have a better grasp and tools @ our disposal.
And with inflation we can adjust in relation to our own personal financial situation...from fifty years ago and today.
Another thing; our emotional level facing music listening has also evolved.

Put an amplifier built 50 years ago with another one built today, and cover them behind a black screen. Listen to them both in comparison with the same speakers.
Do the same with all other audio gear; TTs, open-reel-decks, radio tuners, speaker cables, power AC chords, analog interconnects, mechanical/electrical loudspeakers.
Adjust the models according to price inflation and to designs using similar goals and techniques.

It is as complex as chess history. The combinations possible are millions more than all the stars in the universe.
All the world's encyclopedias about life on Earth since the beginning of the writings couldn't even approach the relativity of this extreme complexity and undefined infinity.

Yeah, people who own vintage audio gear think it's best because they are in love. You can't stop what's coming up and you can't change history.
Good and bad are part of human nature through all time periods. And audio gear are designed by humans still. ...Even robots who build our audio gear today are designed by humans.

What I find interesting is the change of pursuits over the years. Some are the same, but the parts and technology are not.

I know nothing, I just have few ideas from my book's library. And my experience? Well, my old tuners and speakers and cassette decks and turntables still make music (most of them), but not in the same ways as newer gear. Even today's music recordings are bad, and better. My ears are certainly older and my music taste more "classical".

 

[andromedaaudio]

New isnt always better , anyone can duplicate this for example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ23nz5z4g0

or a granite 70 ton sarcophagus with a 30 ton lid total of 100 ton


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfv3vRrfp2E

 

[beaur]

Well there are two areas that speak to this;

1. Said person may just like the way the vintage system presents the music. Not all audiophiles prefer the detailed, resolving power systems you can get new today. Some prefer a more relaxed natural at ease presentation. Neither camp is "right" it's just what you prefer.

2. Design parameters have changed so the designer's proirities will naturally shift to accomodate. Vintage designers did the best they could to fill a room with music which was most likely a theater as no home systems existed. As home systems evolved they necessarily changed to accomodate modern sensibilites in most homes i.e. we are comparing apples to oranges for the most part. If you are lucky enough to hear a SOTA system of any vintage you would most likely acknowlege it, it just may be that your sensibilities don't trend in that direction.

Also as an aside I can point out several systems where vintage ideas are combined with modern manufacturing to improve on the original sound.

I am always amazed when people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear. Are these people just Into nostalgia or are they In denial?

 

[steve williams]

New isnt always better , anyone can duplicate this for example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ23nz5z4g0

or a granite 70 ton sarcophagus with a 30 ton lid total of 100 ton


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfv3vRrfp2E

off topic but fascinating nonetheless

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes , hope to see it for myself later this year , it was merely meant as an example of what specific people are capable off
A top tubedesigner from the sixties may outdesign products off today , ... The NOS tubes are considered the best .
Same goes for horndesigns , the one david uses seems to outclass later products , the basic principles off dynamic loudspeakerdesign or tube amplification havent altered

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
1. Said person may just like the way the vintage system presents the music. Not all audiophiles prefer the detailed, resolving power systems you can get new today. Some prefer a more relaxed natural at ease presentation. . . .

+1