Why do people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear
- Thread starter taters
- Start date
Hello, Keith. While it may not be a technical reason, ones ears may consider the sound to be bright or piercing. At least that's my own personal experience with the combination.
Tom
There are Keith but I'm not the one to explain it, there are others here who can explain the technical issues better. Here's a very basic explanation in this article.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/whyhorns.htm
david
As all rules of thumb created by experience, we can have exceptions - but IMH experience in this case they are due to un-explained technical reasons. Avantgarde designs a solid state amplifier that I have listened sounding really excellent with their own horn speakers.
But, in general, I would say that the few times I listened to horns powered by solid state the sound quality was very poor.
I have read that some people use the DartZeel NH108 with horns - although I still own the former I do not have the horns to try with it ...
New fangled valves? Obviously the purely mechanical system is the only correct way to drive horns. But then should it be wax cylinder or disc? Technically, the cylinder should be superior, but in listening tests lots of people prefer the disc etc. etc. etc.
Depends on the horns Francisco we were discussing vintage horns specifically, many modern horn designs require a lot more power than what the average SET delivers nor are they benign easy loads.
david
I admit; I have only read the first few posts from the first page...but I was still intrigued by the thread's title.
My opinion doesn't count, so I'll just say what a good friend of mine told me instead. :b
Do they still make open-reel tape decks from yesterday but with today's latest and newest and best technologies...parts and all?
...Or do they restore them to today's higher standards?
Also, the ultra high-end turntables of today...they look much more "cooked" than yesterday.
And the vinyl pressing plants...are they better than yesterday with better quality control?
CD players from 1982-83 are they better too than the newest DACs and transports from say Trinity?
Loudspeakers, when my friend was a boy the speakers they had were better @ reproducing music parties with all the girls dancing on stage.
But he doesn't go to the newest parties where the girls now dance without any clothes on.
I know nothing about horns...old horns and new horns...and the power required for them to sing their very best...old and new.
Nostalgia of our youth: Yes my friend is vulnerable to that too...he's just human...not a robot yet...like people will be maybe in the futuristic world...a la many sci-fi flicks that we see from some Hollywood movie directors, and abroad.
So what is it, he asked me...I said you answer it...me my opinion doesn't count.
I've read the first page of this thread...and the right answer was there.
And if someone would ask my sincere opinion...I couldn't because I don't have the experience/expertise in audio trends and in human psychology.
Some of my newest gear produce the latest and best sounds and picture as compared to my older gear from the seventies.
I prefer some older designs...in and out...but it has nothing to do with picture and sound quality.
Horns...they use some in Mad Max. ...And with subwoofers with long chambers...2015.
My opinion doesn't count, so I'll just say what a good friend of mine told me instead. :b
Do they still make open-reel tape decks from yesterday but with today's latest and newest and best technologies...parts and all?
...Or do they restore them to today's higher standards?
Also, the ultra high-end turntables of today...they look much more "cooked" than yesterday.
And the vinyl pressing plants...are they better than yesterday with better quality control?
CD players from 1982-83 are they better too than the newest DACs and transports from say Trinity?
Loudspeakers, when my friend was a boy the speakers they had were better @ reproducing music parties with all the girls dancing on stage.
But he doesn't go to the newest parties where the girls now dance without any clothes on.
I know nothing about horns...old horns and new horns...and the power required for them to sing their very best...old and new.
Nostalgia of our youth: Yes my friend is vulnerable to that too...he's just human...not a robot yet...like people will be maybe in the futuristic world...a la many sci-fi flicks that we see from some Hollywood movie directors, and abroad.
So what is it, he asked me...I said you answer it...me my opinion doesn't count.
I've read the first page of this thread...and the right answer was there.
And if someone would ask my sincere opinion...I couldn't because I don't have the experience/expertise in audio trends and in human psychology.
Some of my newest gear produce the latest and best sounds and picture as compared to my older gear from the seventies.
I prefer some older designs...in and out...but it has nothing to do with picture and sound quality.
Horns...they use some in Mad Max. ...And with subwoofers with long chambers...2015.
You mean this?
"The first problem is electronics. Weiner talked about listening to some Klipschorns with high power solid state amps. The amps were one source of the bad sound. Horn systems typically have sensitivities of 100 to 108 dB SPL with one watt input. Even at the loudest sound that you would realistically audition any speaker system (95-100dB), the amplifier is only delivering a watt or so to the horn system at peaks. Most of the time the amp is idling at 100's of milliwatts; yes, I said milliwatts. At this level many high power solid state amps have real problems with crossover distortion. For this reason, I tell people who buy my horn systems to try different amps with them along with their existing amp. The low power requirement of horns means that single ended tube (SET) amps can easily fill a room with sound. However, not all single ended tube amps are created equal. Some SET designs have relatively high levels of distortion that can be easily heard on the horn system. And of course, the horn gets the blame for the distorted sound."
What crossover distortion? Here is the first hit on measurements of amplifiers from stereophile, the Solution 710: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-710-power-amplifier-measurements#zKc9WavQQksAVp6m.97
At 1 watt, it has THD+noise of 0.005%. And it puts out nearly 200 watts so clearly falls in the category of high-power amplifier. Since the graph declines until about 100 watts, what is there is dominated by noise, not distortion.
Class AB solid state amps are biased to not have crossover distortion at low level. To say nothing of feedback network.
And here is the first hit on a tube amplifier, the Air Tight amplifier: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...er-amplifier-measurements#psEc84fkvFLAYJ1E.97
The THD+N ranges from 0.1 to 2% at 1 watt. Unlike Solid State amp, this is all distortion, not noise at this wattage.
Is there something more authoritative than this little bit to explain why tubes are better for this type of loudspeaker?
And I can only assume you've not heard top quality PA, which is what I was referring to when I spoke of active, not vintage horns. I didn't get my description of vintage horns right? Which part did I get wrong? Coloration? Remarkable headroom even with low-powered amps? Great dynamics at high volume?
Tim
If you take a good old vintage tuner compared to most tuners in receivers today...yes. ...Not HD radio, but FM analog stereo.
I was listening to my "vintage" ( can we call it that since this amp is from the early to mid 80's) ARC D70mk2 tonight. I really have to say that it seems to me that perhaps we have not come that far in amp design since then. Earlier in the day, I had the pleasure of listening to a friends new Classe CA 2300 amp and his B&W 802 Diamonds. Frankly, the newer amp really wasn't as nearly as resolving as my older ARC. On the new release of Doug Macleod..."Exactly like this" on Redbook, the sound of Doug's guitar and his dobro was far more realistic on the older tube amp than on the much newer Classe.
You listened to two different systems, in two different rooms, with two different set of speakers, at two different times and you could tell that one of the amps wasn't nearly as resolving as the other?
Tim
Dave,
Perhaps you should develop what you mean by "resolving" in your sentence. As I have owned B&W 802 and the D70 mk2 simultaneously, and have listened many times to these speakers with several Classe's, as they are affiliated companies, I fully understand and agreed with you! But most of the time "resolving" is used for quantity, not for quality.
My usual recording for expressing the same about the D70 / B&W802 is Bernstein "West Side Story" .
Tim, you bring up a good question. However, I should add that I have heard my friends B&W system on numerous occasions. Therefore, I am very familiar with his room and his gear. The Classe amp is a relatively new addition to the system. Before, he was using a BAT tube amp. We played back the CD's that I stated in my prior post. Same exact music on both systems. ( I am very much used to these cuts as I have now heard them numerous times). The sound of Doug's Dobro was more realistic and "resolved" than on the newer ss amp. We had played the older Macleod CD "There's a time" on both systems, with my friends older BAT amp and with his newer amp and of course on my system. On his older system, with the BAT amp, we both thought that the opening song...."Rosa Lee" was more defined and airy on his old amp. ( He replaced it after some consideration with the new ss amp, as the heat the BAT was giving off was too much to bear in his room--- which is a problem that i think is becoming more and more of an issue for many of us; including myself).
Micro, I think 'resolution' has to do with quality and not quantity. The ability of the D70Mk2 to resolve the smallest details, like the very slight breath that Doug takes every time he "rebuts" on the track "Ain't it rough"on the Exactly like this album is an example of what I am talking about, or the interesting pitch increase on the track "Find your right mind", where the Dobro is really more 'metallic' sounding ( which is how I hear these instruments compared to the standard guitar sound ( steel string that is) if you know what I mean.
Actually I've been buying & donating vintage PA systems for years. My bad the way it read you were comparing PA systems to domestic & theater horns and that's what people were bi-amping. I still don't see what bi-amping has to do with reducing the noise floor of the speakers.
david
You mean this?
"The first problem is electronics. Weiner talked about listening to some Klipschorns with high power solid state amps. The amps were one source of the bad sound. Horn systems typically have sensitivities of 100 to 108 dB SPL with one watt input. Even at the loudest sound that you would realistically audition any speaker system (95-100dB), the amplifier is only delivering a watt or so to the horn system at peaks. Most of the time the amp is idling at 100's of milliwatts; yes, I said milliwatts. At this level many high power solid state amps have real problems with crossover distortion. For this reason, I tell people who buy my horn systems to try different amps with them along with their existing amp. The low power requirement of horns means that single ended tube (SET) amps can easily fill a room with sound. However, not all single ended tube amps are created equal. Some SET designs have relatively high levels of distortion that can be easily heard on the horn system. And of course, the horn gets the blame for the distorted sound."
What crossover distortion? Here is the first hit on measurements of amplifiers from stereophile, the Solution 710: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-710-power-amplifier-measurements#zKc9WavQQksAVp6m.97
At 1 watt, it has THD+noise of 0.005%. And it puts out nearly 200 watts so clearly falls in the category of high-power amplifier. Since the graph declines until about 100 watts, what is there is dominated by noise, not distortion.
Class AB solid state amps are biased to not have crossover distortion at low level. To say nothing of feedback network.
And here is the first hit on a tube amplifier, the Air Tight amplifier: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...er-amplifier-measurements#psEc84fkvFLAYJ1E.97
The THD+N ranges from 0.1 to 2% at 1 watt. Unlike Solid State amp, this is all distortion, not noise at this wattage.
Is there something more authoritative than this little bit to explain why tubes are better for this type of loudspeaker?
You have to take it up with the author, Dr. Bruce Elgar. As I mentioned this is one basic issue using high powered solid state with vintage horns, there are other technical issues too that someone like Ralph (Atmosphere) can explain better than me; I know what you get sonically. Just to clarify its not about PP vs SET, its tubes vs solid state, specially high powered SS amps, including the Solution. Modern horns are a different story.
david
i believe this is a proper copy/paste of something from Atmaphere regarding high-impedance speakers...which relates to tubes driving them vs solid state. i have no axe to grind, simply trying to understand. i understand some horns can have very high impedance characteristics?
From Atmasphere: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-solid-state-amps-and-wild-impedance-speakers
"Let's say you have a high quality 150/channel transistor amp. 150 watts into 8 ohms, a reasonable amount of power, but if you have a four Ohm speaker its 300 watts. Nice. Into 2 Ohms, if the amp doesn't blow up or current limit, 600 watts. So what does the amp produce driving 16 Ohms? 75 watts. Into 32 Ohms its only 35 watts! This could result in serious problems were the speaker a typical electrostatic, where such impedances are common in the bass frequencies. This explains why transistor amplifiers are usually such a poor match for electrostatic speakers.
This is what the right OTL can do into these impedances: 150 watts into 8 ohms, 145 into four (less than 1/2db difference), about 80 watts into 2 ohms, but into 16 we have 149 watts, into 32 ohms 145 watts- so you see that as long as the speaker load is moderately well behaved, this OTL example produces far more linear power over the same range of impedances, whereas the transistor amp is quite simply incapable of being linear at all! Why?
When a recording is made, it is assumed that a linear system is to be used so that it is capable of recording the same energy at all frequencies. When we play it back, for best results the playback should be the same at all frequencies, too. If there are variations in the speaker impedance, this will not be possible with a transistor amplifier unless it has a lot of negative feedback (which most of them do), which has the additional effect of decreasing bass impact, restricting dynamics, foreshortening soundstage depth and increasing odd-ordered harmonic distortion. Thus there is no way that a transistor amp can be described as linear if it is subject to these problems and that is one of the reasons why transistor amps produce so many amusical colorations. The reason has to do with the vanishingly small output impedance of the transistor amp (here's some myth bashing for you). The result is that the transistor amp has what is called a constant voltage characteristic, not constant power, which is of course what a power amp should do!
So, despite the fact that smaller OTL amplifiers don't like four ohm speakers, they are quite capable of giving you a more even power characteristic (read: flatter frequency response, all other things being equal), especially on a speaker with a wild impedance curve."
From Atmasphere: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-solid-state-amps-and-wild-impedance-speakers
"Let's say you have a high quality 150/channel transistor amp. 150 watts into 8 ohms, a reasonable amount of power, but if you have a four Ohm speaker its 300 watts. Nice. Into 2 Ohms, if the amp doesn't blow up or current limit, 600 watts. So what does the amp produce driving 16 Ohms? 75 watts. Into 32 Ohms its only 35 watts! This could result in serious problems were the speaker a typical electrostatic, where such impedances are common in the bass frequencies. This explains why transistor amplifiers are usually such a poor match for electrostatic speakers.
This is what the right OTL can do into these impedances: 150 watts into 8 ohms, 145 into four (less than 1/2db difference), about 80 watts into 2 ohms, but into 16 we have 149 watts, into 32 ohms 145 watts- so you see that as long as the speaker load is moderately well behaved, this OTL example produces far more linear power over the same range of impedances, whereas the transistor amp is quite simply incapable of being linear at all! Why?
When a recording is made, it is assumed that a linear system is to be used so that it is capable of recording the same energy at all frequencies. When we play it back, for best results the playback should be the same at all frequencies, too. If there are variations in the speaker impedance, this will not be possible with a transistor amplifier unless it has a lot of negative feedback (which most of them do), which has the additional effect of decreasing bass impact, restricting dynamics, foreshortening soundstage depth and increasing odd-ordered harmonic distortion. Thus there is no way that a transistor amp can be described as linear if it is subject to these problems and that is one of the reasons why transistor amps produce so many amusical colorations. The reason has to do with the vanishingly small output impedance of the transistor amp (here's some myth bashing for you). The result is that the transistor amp has what is called a constant voltage characteristic, not constant power, which is of course what a power amp should do!
So, despite the fact that smaller OTL amplifiers don't like four ohm speakers, they are quite capable of giving you a more even power characteristic (read: flatter frequency response, all other things being equal), especially on a speaker with a wild impedance curve."
No problem, but I was talking about contemporary SOTA PA, not vintage. The vintage stuff is actually very close to theater horns, though. The first big system I used, many years ago was, in fact, Altec Lansing "Voice of the Theater." The big difference was the lack of permanent installation. Depending on the location, that could, of course, be a huge difference. We powered them with a rack of Crowns. Solid state.
Bi-amping (and tri-amping) reduces distortion by isolating the amp-stressing load of deep bass reproduction from the amps that are powering the mids and highs. Active crossovers (we didn't use these back in the day) also reduce noise and distortion audibly and measurably. As far as contemporary vs. vintage is concerned, there have been plenty of advances in compression drivers, waveforms, speakers, crossovers...pretty much everything. In spite of all that, vintage theater horns can be very impressive. A very cool hobby you have there.
Tim
I think the best is to have an amp and speakers together that are a perfect match. I dont see the point in getting ie a speaker that is recommended 400watts, and add a 100watts amp to it. I prefer to buy stuff that is fairly close in watts and db.
Similar threads
