Why do people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear

[NorthStar]

We have to make things clear first here:

Older computers don't stand a chance with newer ones, even against our Androids.

Turntables made fifty years ago are missing many important points in today's new hi-tech TTs with their more accurate motors and isolation platforms and advanced tonearms and more modern phono stages.

Tuners are now international radio, digital, with more higher parts and less distortion and extended frequency response, and no more rabbit antenna or tall pole in your backyard...for ham radio and airwaves.

Receivers; today they have eleven channels (Atmos, dts:X), and auto room EQ...Dirac Live, Audyssey Platinum Pro, ...and you can easily install them in your rack with your back...@ 25-35 pounds. Yesterday's stereo receivers are only two channels, no Ethernet port, no USB asynchronous, no HDMI, no 4K, no apps, just an analog radio, a phono jack and two cassette tape decks...and 75 pounds weight...a back breaker!

And I can keep on for all audio components of the music chain.

The best thing about vintage audio gear: Analog, Simplicity, Retro looks. Performance and sound superiority...it depends; you have to compare a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck with today's open-reel deck. And yesterday best stereo receivers are much better than today's receivers that sell for $199 @ Wallmart.
You got a go with top today's receivers with top EQ system, then retro vintage receivers kiss my behind good bye.

You gotta keep things realistically in perspective. Open-reel tape decks are about the only analog audio components that beats all today's digital sky high @ la Trinity and all that sort of digital jazz.

* Say you have nothing (no audio gear, and minimal savings); and your wife is feeling generous because she just had a job promotion as executive of a very profitable company...Apple products. She said to you; Go spend $100,000 for a hi-fi sound system, tax not included." So up you go driving your vintage classic Ford truck, or Mustang car, and to your favorite local audio dealer and/or eBay. Are you going to go for fifty-years old vintage audio gear (circa 1966), or are you going to go for the newest 2016 stuff and speakers. The answer to that question is the why some people prefer vintage gear over new gear; lost romance, lost nostalgic times of their youth. ...Old disco prestige over today's hi-tek sound performance with a punch.

The vintage people, most of them, have a disco ball in their basements, some lava lamps and blacklight posters of Black Sabbath and Deep Purple.
They think their gear sounds the best because they're stuck in the past.

In general...

 

[bonzo75]

In general, you are confusing things...computers are better today because there is incentive to. While I haven't compared many vintage and new TTs, i don't see any incentive to progress today, while I do see one 70s or 80s. And yes, you won't find a better group than led zep or.better classical composers than the vintage ones. Again, that is because the way the rock artists of the 70s came up is different to today. And the classical period did unleash a creativity in music composition. Just because years move on doesn't mean things get better, if there is no incentive. Incentives move to different things...Today it might be alternative rock and computer audio rather than classical and turntables

 

[bonzo75]

In general, you are confusing things...computers are better today because there is incentive to. While I haven't compared many vintage and new TTs, i don't see any incentive to progress today, while I do see one 70s or 80s. And yes, you won't find a better group than led zep or.better classical composers than the vintage ones. Again, that is because the way the rock artists of the 70s came up is different to today. And the classical period did unleash a creativity in music composition. Just because years move on doesn't mean things get better, if there is no incentive. Incentives move to different things...Today it might be alternative rock and computer audio rather than classical and turntables

 

[Al M.]

And yes, you won't find a better group than led zep or.better classical composers than the vintage ones. Again, that is because the way the rock artists of the 70s came up is different to today. And the classical period did unleash a creativity in music composition.

I would agree in general about rock. There are exceptions. I would say that Green Day is the best Punk Band bar none (nothing in that genre during the 70s, early 80s approaches them), and their American Idiot album from 2005 is among the greatest rock albums of all time.

As for classical, I would think that some of today's classical avantgarde is among the greatest classical music out there. Not to pretend to diminsh the justified enormous status of the likes of Bach, Beethoven etc. Thus if you say there are "no better classical composers than the (greatest) vintage ones" I would agree; where we might have a debate is over whether some modern greats are not as good as some old greats.

Edit: BTW, just listened to Beethoven's fabulous string quartet op. 18/4. Earlier this evening Beethoven's string quartet op. 18/2, Stockhausen's Michael's Greeting from the opera Thursday from Light and the last scene of Wolfgang Rihm's Tutuguri, among others.

 

[PeterA]

As a distributor/importer/dealer I had/have enough high and ultra high end equipment pass through my hands to have an accurate picture of what was and what is. For myself pivot to vintage audio equipment was solely based on sound quality and sound quality alone, neither nostalgia nor cost although a benefit had a bearing on my decision. Of course somethings have aged better than others but those that have stood the test of time have no peers sonically in todays high end." IMO" for those who need it in every post!

david

David, with all of your incredible vintage turntables, I'm curious why you added the contemporary TechDas to your stable. Do you listen to it very often? Is it a true evolution of your Micro tables with superior sound, or is it just different?

 

[ddk]

David, with all of your incredible vintage turntables, I'm curious why you added the contemporary TechDas to your stable. Do you listen to it very often? Is it a true evolution of your Micro tables with superior sound, or is it just different?

I bought the AF-1 because I think it's the best tt made today and I was curious to see how it compares to the older ones. While the AF-1 is an evolution of the older Micros the nature of the sound and how it's presented is different, specially with the aluminum platter which is actually very different sound than the Micros.

I to listen to the older tables more often, it's a type of sound that I prefer and there's also the issue of arms. I like changing cartridges and have many favorites, the AF-1 takes only one 12" arm the other one is only a 10" which is a problem for me.

david

 

[bonzo75]

I love the techdas, it sounded superb in all Munich rooms two years in a row, at Steve's, another place I have been in. I'm DDk's his other the TTs sounded better. Steve thought adj too, and Marty heard that and the American Sounds and preferred the American Sounds. I know off 4 other people who prefer micro seiki to techdas and two to Kuzma xl4. I have never heard it but really interested in listening to the 5000.

Another kronos dealer is thirsting for the 8000 as his final TT. I don't know if all these guys are right about their judgement, but none of them do it for nostalgia. Most of their other equipment is modern

 

[DaveC]

I only see one valid exception to the fact that high end audio hasn't improved and that's in digital audio. For the rest it's definitely debatable. And it's hard to argue digital audio has easily surpassed vintage vinyl let alone RtR tape decks, so if that's the case then overall it was possible to build a system in the 50s that would rival any of today's top systems.

Also, I do understand some things have been improved, for example beryllium and diamond drivers, but again it's hard to argue they are actually superior to vintage alternatives in terms of subjective appreciation of music reproduction. The objective advancement of certain technical parameters in the performance of drivers does not seem to translate into a much improved subjective experience. SO while there have been advances, it's hard to argue they are really that much advanced over vintage tech in overall results.

Even today, the best of vintage technology is certainly considered high end... DHT vacuum tubes, field-coil driver motors, vinyl + RtR, etc...

 

[bonzo75]

And, at the risk of sounding Lampizated again, the reason that dac sounds better than all other digital is not because it advanced in digital technology...in fact, its digital implementation might not be great - but it borrowed a well known matured technology from amps - DHT SET - and it is its analog output, power supply and the DHTs that make it the dac what it is. It lets you put the best valves in front of the chain. The Hyundai owner at Munich gave very scientific reasons why older WE tubes sounded better - unfortunately I cannot recollect it well enough to explain it, but that information is out there.

 

[microstrip]

And, at the risk of sounding Lampizated again, the reason that dac sounds better than all other digital is not because it advanced in digital technology...in fact, its digital implementation might not be great - but it borrowed a well known matured technology from amps - DHT SET - and it is its analog output, power supply and the DHTs that make it the dac what it is. It lets you put the best valves in front of the chain. The Hyundai owner at Munich gave very scientific reasons why older WE tubes sounded better - unfortunately I cannot recollect it well enough to explain it, but that information is out there.

You are really Lampizated - IMHO a good think in this hobby ... .

Although the DAC topology is a well kept secret, do you think that, in principle, just adding this "magic" in the preamplifier stage would obtain the same result?

 

[bonzo75]

You are really Lampizated - IMHO a good think in this hobby ... .

Although the DAC topology is a well kept secret, do you think that, in principle, just adding this "magic" in the preamplifier stage would obtain the same result?

Don't know, but if you could, add at both places. Don't think the pre will be able to purify the vivaldi input

 

[ddk]

Don't forget about Neumann lathes and the wonderful tube mics that gave brilliant engineers the tools to create those magnificent records. Looking deeper, the musical instrument; string, percussion and horn is replaced with a scratch record and virtuosi with DJs! I don't even want to start a conversion about music genre, but Rap?

david

I only see one valid exception to the fact that high end audio hasn't improved and that's in digital audio. For the rest it's definitely debatable. And it's hard to argue digital audio has easily surpassed vintage vinyl let alone RtR tape decks, so if that's the case then overall it was possible to build a system in the 50s that would rival any of today's top systems.

Also, I do understand some things have been improved, for example beryllium and diamond drivers, but again it's hard to argue they are actually superior to vintage alternatives in terms of subjective appreciation of music reproduction. The objective advancement of certain technical parameters in the performance of drivers does not seem to translate into a much improved subjective experience. SO while there have been advances, it's hard to argue they are really that much advanced over vintage tech in overall results.

Even today, the best of vintage technology is certainly considered high end... DHT vacuum tubes, field-coil driver motors, vinyl + RtR, etc...

 

[microstrip]

Don't know, but if you could, add at both places. Don't think the pre will be able to purify the vivaldi input

Who told you that the DCS Vivaldi needs purification?

 

[microstrip]

I only see one valid exception to the fact that high end audio hasn't improved and that's in digital audio. (...)

Dave,

I have to disagree with you on this one. Digital is still not up to the top R2R played in my Studer A80, but has been improving considerably in the last 5 years. Not just smoothing the edges and becoming spacious, but becoming more rich, more detailed, with more real sense of space and and more energetic.

IMHO the evolution is not in the components or technology, it is in how people use them.

 

[DaveC]

David,

I have to disagree with you on this one. Digital is still not up to the top R2R played in my Studer A80, but has been improving considerably in the last 5 years. Not just smoothing the edges and becoming spacious, but becoming more rich, more detailed, with more real sense of space and and more energetic.

IMHO the evolution is not in the components or technology, it is in how people use them.

It's arguable that digital even existed during the vintage years... I consider vintage pre-transistor actually as transistors are responsible for the shift to modern audio as we know it now. But it would be hard to argue the best digital now isn't far better than in the past and I do agree it isn't as good as the best vinyl or RtR yet so not sure where we disagree?

I do think digital has allowed amazing advances in the convenience of playing music and it's portability, but not so much as far as subjective enjoyment or sound quality.

 

[ddk]

It's arguable that digital even existed during the vintage years... I consider vintage pre-transistor actually as transistors are responsible for the shift to modern audio as we know it now. But it would be hard to argue the best digital now isn't far better than in the past and I do agree it isn't as good as the best vinyl or RtR yet so not sure where we disagree?

I do think digital has allowed amazing advances in the convenience of playing music and it's portability, but not so much as far as subjective enjoyment or sound quality.

Apparently digital was born in the 30's but it wasn't until much later when Sony+Philips commercialized it at the expense of analog, probably a strategy for Sony Music to breathe life into their old library among other things of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_recording

david

 

[Al M.]

I do think digital has allowed amazing advances in the convenience of playing music and it's portability, but not so much as far as subjective enjoyment or sound quality.

Really? I enjoy the music coming from my current digital rig tremendously! Much more so than from older digital playback in the past (I went though 4 CD players / playback combos before arriving at my current one).

And no, I am not going analog only because I have heard SOTA analog and know what it can do. The best digital (mine is somewhat below that) is quite close to catching up.

 

[PeterA]

Really? I enjoy the music coming from my current digital rig tremendously! Much more so than from older digital playback in the past (I went though 4 CD players / playback combos before arriving at my current one).

And no, I am not going analog only because I have heard SOTA analog and know what it can do. The best digital (mine is somewhat below that) is quite close to catching up.

Al, are you certain that you have heard SOTA analog, or just really good contemporary analog? I have heard two of the systems to which I think you refer, and they are excellent, but I really think there is better analog out there. I just have not heard enough different systems to really know SOTA analog.

For one thing, I have not heard any of the vintage super tables of the past, nor some of those arms and cartridges. Furthermore, I have not heard the contemporary SAT tonearm, the AirTight Opus cartridge, ddk's or ML's systems to name just a handful of potential contenders.

I agree that digital playback is getting much better, but I happen to think that vinyl analog is getting better too, despite the argument that current analog has not advanced the art since the golden age of LP.

 

[microstrip]

It's arguable that digital even existed during the vintage years... I consider vintage pre-transistor actually as transistors are responsible for the shift to modern audio as we know it now. But it would be hard to argue the best digital now isn't far better than in the past and I do agree it isn't as good as the best vinyl or RtR yet so not sure where we disagree?

I do think digital has allowed amazing advances in the convenience of playing music and it's portability, but not so much as far as subjective enjoyment or sound quality.

My best tapes were recorded by real experts - they are in minimum number and they are not enough in terms of music enjoyment, but played with an A80 they still are my reference.

I have listened to top digital and top vinyl, and IMHO one or two times the vinyl smashed digital was due to room or system limitations, not to intrinsic qualities of vinyl. Both systems have good things and are complementary, not antagonistic. However if you fine tune your system using vinyl do not expect to get great digital sound.

I had really fabulous experiences with CD - and the music I mostly enjoy lives in that kingdom. Enough to keep me pursuing the limits of CD, even if my room seems smaller than ideal for digital. The damn digital loves space ...

 

[ddk]

My best tapes were recorded by real experts - they are in minimum number and they are not enough in terms of music enjoyment, but played with an A80 they still are my reference.

I have listened to top digital and top vinyl, and IMHO one or two times the vinyl smashed digital was due to room or system limitations, not to intrinsic qualities of vinyl. Both systems have good things and are complementary, not antagonistic. However if you fine tune your system using vinyl do not expect to get great digital sound.

I had really fabulous experiences with CD - and the music I mostly enjoy lives in that kingdom. Enough to keep me pursuing the limits of CD, even if my room seems smaller than ideal for digital. The damn digital loves space ...

I have a different experience;

- at low end digital has the advantage. (sub $1k)

- mid level goes both ways depending on the brand & model. ($2-$10k)

- high end, digital isn't even close in naturalness, musicality and everything else that brings a sense of reality to the sound. ($10k +)

david