Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[mep]

But he only has "the" Carver (among current tube amps) to compare to? Which Carver? Not very convincing, to say the least, even if his underlying premise turns out to be true...

He had the smallest, cheapest Carver amp.

 

[Al M.]

Thanks, Myles, for posting those texts from Millennia Music & Media. Very interesting and appropriate to the discussion!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, I think we all know about the physical measurements. The problem is we don't know much about how our ears translate sound into a signal that travels on nerves, and we know almost nothing about how the brain processes music.

But it clearly does. We do know that limbic system processes music initially. However if the limbic system runs into problems (IOW finds that something about the sound is unexpected such as a violation of rules that it uses) the processing transfers to the cerebral cortex. There is a tipping point for that, but its not known how that works. But this does seem to have something to do with why some equipment has an 'emotionally involving' aspect whereas other equipment does not.

So it would appear that understanding human perceptual rules and designing equipment to honor those rules will result in playback that will sound better. That is the greater context of that short statement.

Actually, we know quite a lot about how input coming through our senses is translated into the signals that travel through our nervous system to our brains. And since the advent of technologies like the MRI, we've learned a remarkable amount about how the brain processes those signals, even music. What we don't understand very well is what happens between the processing of those waves, and perception. I think most of us will probably agree on that. It's a somewhat smaller group, I think, that believes that someday those perceptual rules will be understood, and will reveal that their personal preferences have been superior all along.

Tim

PS: If, on a sunny spring day with the windows rolled down, driving down the road, a cheap car radio playing great music is not emotionally involving, you need to work on your emotions, not your system.

 

[rbbert]

MRI doesn't tell us much about neural processing. PET scans and its variants might.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks, Myles, for posting those texts from Millennia Music & Media. Very interesting and appropriate to the discussion!

If you go to the link provided, you can at least on the computer, listen to and compare simple vs. multi-miked orchestral recording.

 

[MylesBAstor]

MRI doesn't tell us much about neural processing. PET scans and its variants might.

I think some of the studies are done with fMRI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging

 

[rbbert]

Functional MRI is still a bit controversial, in the sense that there isn't a good consensus on interpreting the images or what they mean after interpretation.

 

[thedudeabides]

PS: If, on a sunny spring day with the windows rolled down, driving down the road, a cheap car radio playing great music is not emotionally involving, you need to work on your emotions, not your system.

+1

 

[Orb]

MRI doesn't tell us much about neural processing. PET scans and its variants might.

Although I would say it depends upon the scope and interpretation requirements.
Some type of MRI and pretty expensive hardware is used for the Human Connectome Project; the combined research of Washington University (St Louis) with University of Minnesota (funded for these university research by HCP), and also combined Massachusetts General Hospital with University of California.

Even understanding the activity and critically the connections provides a great understanding of the brain and how it processes - some great work coming from HCP.
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
http://www.neuroscienceblueprint.nih.gov/connectome/

Cheers
Orb

 

[Atmasphere]

PS: If, on a sunny spring day with the windows rolled down, driving down the road, a cheap car radio playing great music is not emotionally involving, you need to work on your emotions, not your system.

Agreed!- but that is the sunny spring day talking. I wouldn't even need the radio for that. Winters here suck, but may be why I have really come to appreciate spring in a big way.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
PS: If, on a sunny spring day with the windows rolled down, driving down the road, a cheap car radio playing great music is not emotionally involving, you need to work on your emotions, not your system.

We can think so, but perhaps if was a not a so cheap and nasty sounding radio it would be emotionally involving?


Not all reproduced sound is very refined, and it is clear that much of the time we are willing to suspend criticism of the sound itself to just enjoy the music, movie, or whatever program instigated the sound. All of us at one time or another have felt that chill running down our spine—that tingling sensation that tells us we are experiencing something special and emotionally moving. Was it “real”? Was it “reproduction”? Good sound or bad? Does it matter? The fact that these feelings happen confirms that the system works. But - and this is the motivation for this book—if any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. This is part of the ever-evolving entertainment industry. With the application of science and good engineering, it is reasonable to assume that we can enjoy better reproduced sound more often in more places. F. Toole, Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms.

 

[JackD201]

We can think so, but perhaps if was a not a so cheap and nasty sounding radio it would be emotionally involving?


Not all reproduced sound is very refined, and it is clear that much of the time we are willing to suspend criticism of the sound itself to just enjoy the music, movie, or whatever program instigated the sound. All of us at one time or another have felt that chill running down our spine—that tingling sensation that tells us we are experiencing something special and emotionally moving. Was it “real”? Was it “reproduction”? Good sound or bad? Does it matter? The fact that these feelings happen confirms that the system works. But - and this is the motivation for this book—if any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. This is part of the ever-evolving entertainment industry. With the application of science and good engineering, it is reasonable to assume that we can enjoy better reproduced sound more often in more places. F. Toole, Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms.

I must say that if it is a piece of music I already know and love the quality of reproduction I require is much less than that of a piece of music I am listening to for the first time. Quality is even more important when I've heard the piece a few times and then have more interest in it exploring further. So while I might be driving with the windows down and a great tune comes on and I go "Wow, nice!". You can be pretty sure that in the next go around I'll be playing it on something better than the car radio.

 

[Empirical]

While transformers offer better circuit protection and isolation than transformerless designs, they nevertheless present one additional layer of sonic personality. The best transformers are quite subtle at low to medium levels. Yet there is no transformer we've used which can rival the transparency of well-designed transformerless inputs & especially under higher dynamic range.

You might want to try a new transformer technology from Japan called Finemet. This is unlike any other transformer I have tried. Does not saturate and extends to very high frequencies. Very dynamic. I use it in my Final Drive product. I compared it to my all-silver Music First passive line-stage and the same in copper.

Here is one offered on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teramoto-FINEMET-Premium-Transformers-for-AK4399-DAC-/200641346566?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2eb727fc06

I recommend and use transformers for 2 reasons:

1) isolation of ground between DAC and preamp or amp - breaks the ground-loop
2) provides a true-balanced signal - as Ralph Karsten will likely tell you: it is impossible to get a truly balanced signal output without using a transformer

This is the case for several reasons, but primarily because SS balanced output signals can NEVER have exactly the same amplitude or amplitude WRT ground.

Steve N.

 

[zztop7]

This is FINEMET

You might want to try a new transformer technology from Japan called Finemet.
Steve N.

The USA gets some credit here:
Based on technology developed at AlliedSignal research facilities in Morristown, New Jersey, the unit began developing amorphous metals in 1970.
In 2003, Metglas, Inc. became a subsidiary of Hitachi Metals America, Ltd.
Located in Conway, South Carolina, Metglas, Inc. is the world’s leading producer of amorphous metal ribbon and components used in the production of electrical distribution transformers -
Metglas is a thin amorphous metal alloy ribbon. - This is FINEMET

zz.

 

[Atmasphere]

You might want to try a new transformer technology from Japan called Finemet. This is unlike any other transformer I have tried. Does not saturate and extends to very high frequencies. Very dynamic. I use it in my Final Drive product. I compared it to my all-silver Music First passive line-stage and the same in copper.

Here is one offered on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teramoto-FI...pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2eb727fc06

I recommend and use transformers for 2 reasons:

1) isolation of ground between DAC and preamp or amp - breaks the ground-loop
2) provides a true-balanced signal - as Ralph Karsten will likely tell you: it is impossible to get a truly balanced signal output without using a transformer

This is the case for several reasons, but primarily because SS balanced output signals can NEVER have exactly the same amplitude or amplitude WRT ground.

Steve N.

I remember when Metglas first appeared. I contacted them to see about audio possibilities. At the time it was priced beyond the abilities of a private experimenter.

You can produce a nearly perfectly balanced signal without a transformer. We do it all the time, but in a way that is similar to how a transformer does it- with a floating circuit that does not make reference to ground.

 

[yawg]

Reading this long thread I found something quite interesting:

'
Tim deParavicini has said he can get identical sound from tubes or SS. When asked why he used tubes he said that is where the market is. People will pay more for and pay more attention to tubes than an identical sounding SS unit. I suspect Bob Carver has found the same. The visual impression that you have something special in his Super Silver Seven is beyond that of a solid state unit. The heft, weight, all the glowing tubes is not something that seems as substantial in transistor form.

BTW, Mr. Carver worked with Mr. deParavicini on his current design. Mr. deParavicini desinged the input and driver stages, they collaborated on how do to the feedback while Mr. Carver handled the output stage and power supply.

I own a pair of Musical Fidelity SS monoblocs and the tube monos I use to drive the ribbon and midrange panel of my Maggies are EAR 549, both designed by Tim.

The MFs sound like tube amps to my ears, the EARs are very "neutral" except for the special shimmer they have with horns and cymbals - I guess there is a special synergy between the 549s and the ribbons of the Maggies ...

Although the 200 watts of the EARs are capable to drive my speakers full-range I am bi-amping and use a pair of cheap SS THX-monos to drive the bass panels. So I can play a bit louder sometimes - I like "realistic" levels of live music at home, too

I see me as a true agnostic here. After having discovered the merits of good tubes accidentally and quite late via the tubed line stage of my Cayin DAC (I was rolling a lot of tubes there until I found the old Siemens CCa) I also tried different tubed preamps (had much fun rolling tubes, easy and with instant results) but eventually returned to my proven SS P2, it just had a tad better resolution and that great phono section.

I'm happy that I don't have a special technical background. I feel there are very competent people here but some of them appear quite biased to me. "Hearing is believing" - as the Koss slogan goes ...

Cheers, Jörg.

 

[yawg]

Here's a question for the SS cognoscenti here: Can someone please name some classic SS amps that are highly sought after and rarely if ever come up for sale?

Yep. The Musical Fidelity A1, designed by Tim de Paravicini. My friend with the "golden ears" paid a lot of money to have his revised.

It sounds like at tube amp to my "wooden" ears

Jörg.

 

[c1ferrari]

MRI doesn't tell us much about neural processing. PET scans and its variants might.

+1

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Just so you know it's possible, REW runs on my Windows 7 64-bit computer with no problem. Do you have the current 5.0 version?

--Ethan

Yup, and it is V 5.0 that won't run. The application loads, appears on the screen, but that's all. It may as well be wallpaper, because no matter where I click on the app window, it won't respond. I've removed and installed it several times, downloaded a fresh copy, reinstalled, but the same result every time.

 

[Orb]

Functional MRI is still a bit controversial, in the sense that there isn't a good consensus on interpreting the images or what they mean after interpretation.

Coming back to this just raising again HCP and others such as CMRR related projects including the 500 mapped subjects using various scanning techniques includikng Functional MRI.
I assume it may be of some interest to the neuro associated members here:
The data will be released after May: http://humanconnectome.org/about/pressroom/project-news/prepare-upcoming-500-subjects-data-release/
Following link is initial background: http://humanconnectome.org/about/pressroom/project-news/hcp-releases-initial-meg-dataset/

For us members (including me in this as well) where such info would give us a brain ache lol, following link gives an interesting background and please note first image under 1st section is also a basic slideshow.
http://www.mmf.umn.edu/mb/features/stories/Mapping-the-Human-Brain/
Definitely interesting work, especially the mapping of white matter fiber trajectories-connections IMO.
Cheers
Orb