Windsor Hifi Show - simple systems ruled

[morricab]

I have heard ypsilon aelius drive Ultimates and vivid G1, in non show conditions and in another system ABed then with Luxman on G1. The pre does sound good though and could potentially be a final pre if I can get a compare later.
For someone who can get a large room and large speakers, there are very few speakers that can sound good with SET amps - an extremely low number of large horns. Where SET amps work for the average room/budget constrained audiophile is that given he has to compromise on various factors, SETs on speakers like Verity or OTL on quads can be musical on many aspects at low volumes and low budgets.

Many large speakers work very well with SETs. Wilsons and Focal come to mind. Even moderate sized boxes work well from about 90db and up...and quite loud too, not only low volumes or low budgets (last time I checked SETs were not so cheap). We have had very nice success with Thiel CS3.7 and a number of SETs (KR Audio, Cayin 845, Aries Diana, Wall Audio, NAT) and push/pull triode of modest power (VAC 30/30 and Puresound A30). The room was not tiny either and the levels were high much of the time.

But i don't get toy horns and so-called back loaded horns or sensitive boxes.

So you consider the Aries Cerat Symphonia a Toy horn? It uses a backloaded horn woofer...nothing wrong with this concept if executed properly. If the Cessaro Chopin is your reference for this then it is time to change your reference! My Odeons make great bass and so does the Symphonia. These are true horns (the Symphonia is a 3meter long horn...mine are a bit shorter).

SS amps increase the range of speakers that do much more, smoothness and tone of SS can be managed at a price.

I have not heard a SS amp yet that does tone like a good SET...not one. Some hybrids get very close (like my NAT and Ypsilon gear, supposedly the Pathos TT is a sweetheart but only for easy speakers) but I haven't heard a pure SS amp yet that can do what needs to be done. Don't tell me Luxman please...I have heard their best stuff with Vivid Gigyas a few times and, well, no. There are claims that the Pass XA30.8 is the one for tube lovers but I haven't heard it yet so I won't comment. The recent review by Jack Roberts strongly suggested that it was better than the big brother XA60.8s. Power corrupts... .

I am quite certain if I go Apogee in a big room or YG in a small room (now unlikely given how nice Heco is in a small room) it will be SS, mostly class A SS but there are some good AB amps, though all this require money.

I predict the hunt will go on after that...you won't be satisfied. YG in a small room would work fine with 20-30 watts of SET power. Heco even better. If I was going to do big Apogees in a big room then I would think about Ypsilon Aelius, NAT Transmitter, or CAT JL2 Signature. If I had the serious coin to drop I would consider the Ypsilon big hybrid SET monos. I think Ayon Vulcan Evo or another parallel SET with about 40-60 watts would do the trick (Absolare monos for example?). The big Apogees, except for the original Full-range, are not so hard to drive.

Sure, if I go trio, universum, WE, it will be SET. Amps cannot make up at all for the sound once the speaker is compromised. If anything amp ideology can screw up the sound. Better to spend on a good TT

Amps can make up a lot on a system...they can turn so-so speakers into quite good sound...I have heard this many times. What I have also heard is the COMPLETE destruction of the sound with poor amps...even with the fnest speakers...this is the number one problem with show sound, IMO. Bad electronics ruining the sound...not the room.

Recently, I was at a show only a few hundred meters from my home and there was a room with the Vandersteen Treo speaker driven by an all Brinkmann setup. It sounded wonderful...Now the new DAC is really good and a hybrid and the preamp is a hybrid but the amps are no feedback SS amps. It didn't have the depth of tone of a good SET but the surface was mighty nice. I have heard the same speaker with different electronics the year before and it sucked. It was the same room and same setup (they always for some reason get the same room every year). Interestingly, two years before it was also great with all Brinkmann again.

I heard the same thing in Munich. One year they had the Vandersteen 7 with Brinkmann amps...great. The next year with their own branded amp (not sure who actually made it) sucked. I have heard this so many times I have lost count. People write off a speaker but they haven't heard it's best.

Sorry this gets repeated

d

 

[bonzo75]

I already researched aelius and ruled it out, and when I say research it means multiple demos and compares. I haven't heard Aries horn, but heard many others including odeon Nr. 28 with NAT, KR, Einstein.


Your comment that you haven't heard an SS amp with as good tone as SET is incomplete. It should be amp plus speaker, not amp alone.

I have compared Vitus SM 102 and kondo kagura on magico. I would love to listen to NAT and KR and Aries on wisdom Alexandria, but now, Dan agostino remains the best amp on them. I would also like to listen to Vitus and Jadis on them.

As for the Vandy Quattro, I have heard them driven by NAT transmitters.

 

[KeithR]

I have heard ypsilon aelius drive Ultimates and vivid G1, in non show conditions and in another system ABed then with Luxman on G1. The pre does sound good though and could potentially be a final pre if I can get a compare later.
For someone who can get a large room and large speakers, there are very few speakers that can sound good with SET amps - an extremely low number of large horns. Where SET amps work for the average room/budget constrained audiophile is that given he has to compromise on various factors, SETs on speakers like Verity or OTL on quads can be musical on many aspects at low volumes and low budgets.

But i don't get toy horns and so-called back loaded horns or sensitive boxes.

SS amps increase the range of speakers that do much more, smoothness and tone of SS can be managed at a price.

I am quite certain if I go Apogee in a big room or YG in a small room (now unlikely given how nice Heco is in a small room) it will be SS, mostly class A SS but there are some good AB amps, though all this require money.

Sure, if I go trio, universum, WE, it will be SET. Amps cannot make up at all for the sound once the speaker is compromised. If anything amp ideology can screw up the sound. Better to spend on a good TT

Sorry this gets repeated

The day you purchase any pair of speakers will be a forum changing event

I agree with you on SET amps. I had audible distortion on a First Watt SIT at 93dbs in a fairly large room with 101db Zu speakers. I don't listen at 93dbs often of course, but I want that dynamic head room.

My guess in morricab's Thiel 3.7 example, is that there was quite a bit of distortion that went unnoticed. It would be great to run the same test on a First Watt.

 

[bonzo75]

Sonic decisions different from purchase decisions. Morons today again put us in limbo on Brexit

 

[marslo]

I already researched aelius and ruled it out, and when I say research it means multiple demos and compares. I haven't heard Aries horn, but heard many others including odeon Nr. 28 with NAT, KR, Einstein.


Your comment that you haven't heard an SS amp with as good tone as SET is incomplete. It should be amp plus speaker, not amp alone.

I have compared Vitus SM 102 and kondo kagura on magico. I would love to listen to NAT and KR and Aries on wisdom Alexandria, but now, Dan agostino remains the best amp on them. I would also like to listen to Vitus and Jadis on them.

As for the Vandy Quattro, I have heard them driven by NAT transmitters.

A week ago I had Vitus SIA 025 on audition for few days.
Very nice timbre and overall classy SS amp indeed, the first integrated SS design I could live for long with.
For the half of price my Crossfire III is more saturated with better imaging and more holografic sound though.
And to my surprise also the bass is better with my SET amp.

 

[bonzo75]

There is a big difference between their integrated and the SM 102. Like the Lampi level 3 and the big 7. Agreed they are too expensive

Also, a lot of people listen to SS badly set up and hear a hard edge. Once that edge is taken care of, they can sound really organic, at least the good ones. Most importantly, listen to a spectral should sterile with digital and then add a good TT for tone. It will transform from sterile to a superb combination of tone, dynamics, speed, jump and bass

 

[marslo]

There is a big difference between their integrated and the SM 102. Like the Lampi level 3 and the big 7.

Also, a lot of people listen to SS badly set up and hear a hard edge. Once that edge is taken care of, they can sound really organic, at least the good ones. Most importantly, listen to a spectral should sterile with digital and then add a good TT for tone. It will transform from sterile to a superb combination of tone, dynamics, speed, jump and bass

I tried my analog rig with Vitus of course and it was something wrong between my ss phono stage by Tom Evans and Vitus.
The hum was very loud making the audition impossible.
Probably the impedance was the issue.
Vitus SIA means Signature Integrated Amplifier and has amplification from former Master Series in compact design .
And it costs a small fortune - 21 k euro.
Do not tell me that one have to spend over 50 k euro to reach the level of a SET amp for 12 k euro

 

[bonzo75]

Also you have duos and the speakers are the more important part of the equation.

I have compared, on trios, audionote 300b 9w integrated, which paled in comparison to their own 150w class A SS. So what conclusions can you draw? None, because the airtight 9w 300b was the best of the 3, though only marginally compared to their own, and the trio tone was what it is. You either liked it with both or you did not like it with either.

Audiopax is quite preferred on them and it is 30w valve push pull. As you know Mike from audioshark has converted a couple to trios by matching it with Vitus

 

[bonzo75]

I tried my analog rig with Vitus of course and it was something wrong between my ss phono stage by Tom Evans and Vitus.
The hum was very loud making the audition impossible.
Probably the impedance was the issue.
Vitus SIA means Signature Integrated Amplifier and has amplification from former Master Series in compact design .
And it costs a small fortune - 21 k euro.
Do not tell me that one have to spend over 50 k euro to reach the level of a SET amp for 12 k euro

Marslo, my approach is not to look at budget the way you did, but to total the budget across. So I could easily turn that around to say don't tell me you have to get duos and ayon when you can get a duetta and electrocompaniet

 

[marslo]

Also you have duos and the speakers are the more important part of the equation.

I have compared, on trios, audionote 300b 9w integrated, which paled in comparison to their own 150w class A SS. So what conclusions can you draw? None, because the airtight 9w 300b was the best of the 3, though only marginally compared to their own, and the trio tone was what it is. You either liked it with both or you did not like it with either.


Audiopax is quite preferred on them and it is 30w valve push pull. As you know Mike from audioshark has converted a couple to trios by matching it with Vitus

I agree with you that the synergy is a key factor so every amp may sound different depending on speakers and source.
I am not against Vitus, I asked for the audition because in Munich 2014 I was amazed how good sounded Trios driven by Vitus Master class power amp.
My new Duo Mezzo XD sound different from G2 AG series and I am trying to find the best integrated amplification for them , Crossfire III is still difficult to beat though.
As you know I listened twice to Audiopax/AG combo and was not impressed.

 

[marslo]

Marslo, my approach is not to look at budget the way you did, but to total the budget across. So I could easily turn that around to say don't tell me you have to get duos and ayon when you can get a duetta and electrocompaniet

Without taking prices into consideration we should discuss here only SOTA gear, they sound the best, don' they?
Isn't you who considered simple rigs sounding best in Windsor?

 

[bonzo75]

Without taking prices into consideration we should discuss here only SOTA gear, they sound the best, don' they?
Isn't you who considered simple rigs sounding best in Windsor?

True. I am talking completely a different topic on SETs being the only way.

My choices are quite clear, apogee plus SS, SETs plus WE, trios, Animas and universum, all with SETs, then YG plus SS, stenheim I don't know with what, and Direkt with SETs as of now. Different approaches at different price points and room sizes. And don't let me leave out the datasat dirac auro 3d with SS amps, but can now probably be substituted by Direkt MCH with SETs.

Of my choices, the amp is the least important and I would rather focus the budget on getting in an Aesthetix IO Sig or eclipse, NOSing it up, and getting a good cart. Amp should drive the speaker reasonably

 

[bonzo75]

Anyway, on the plane again

 

[marslo]

To Warsaw ?
Tomorrow the second biggest european Audio and Video Show begin there, over 160 rooms to visit .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

To Warsaw ?
Tomorrow the second biggest european Audio and Video Show begin there, over 160 rooms to visit .

I think Ked is on his way to the West Coast of the USA........

 

[asiufy]

I agree with you that the synergy is a key factor so every amp may sound different depending on speakers and source.
I am not against Vitus, I asked for the audition because in Munich 2014 I was amazed how good sounded Trios driven by Vitus Master class power amp.
My new Duo Mezzo XD sound different from G2 AG series and I am trying to find the best integrated amplification for them , Crossfire III is still difficult to beat though.
As you know I listened twice to Audiopax/AG combo and was not impressed.

Hi Marslo!

What didn't you like about the Audiopax/AG combo? Too mellow?
If SS is an option, a good integrated would be the darTZeel LHC-208. I've tried it personally on a pair of Avantgardes (Unos and Duos), and it was incredible. No noise, very punchy and dynamic, not fatiguing at all! It's an integrated with a DAC and streamer. If you want to keep your Lampi, you can go for the darTZeel CTH-8550, which has a built-in phono instead.


cheers,
alex

 

[bonzo75]

To Warsaw ?
Tomorrow the second biggest european Audio and Video Show begin there, over 160 rooms to visit .

I wish. Actually, i wanted to visit this show this year but did not plan correctly and then couldn't change my tickets. Did not know it was so big though

 

[morricab]

The day you purchase any pair of speakers will be a forum changing event

I agree with you on SET amps. I had audible distortion on a First Watt SIT at 93dbs in a fairly large room with 101db Zu speakers. I don't listen at 93dbs often of course, but I want that dynamic head room.

My guess in morricab's Thiel 3.7 example, is that there was quite a bit of distortion that went unnoticed. It would be great to run the same test on a First Watt.

First of all the SIT is all transistor, which seems to matter for headroom and second it has only 10 watts. All the SETs we used had double to triple the power. The NAT had 100 watts. That plus tube headroom gives plenty of power.

If it was distorting then it was still cleaner, clearer and just plain more interesting than big SS amps we have tried like the Mc MC501 monos.

 

[morricab]

I already researched aelius and ruled it out, and when I say research it means multiple demos and compares. I haven't heard Aries horn, but heard many others including odeon Nr. 28 with NAT, KR, Einstein.


Your comment that you haven't heard an SS amp with as good tone as SET is incomplete. It should be amp plus speaker, not amp alone.



I have compared Vitus SM 102 and kondo kagura on magico. I would love to listen to NAT and KR and Aries on wisdom Alexandria, but now, Dan agostino remains the best amp on them. I would also like to listen to Vitus and Jadis on them.

As for the Vandy Quattro, I have heard them driven by NAT transmitters.

Your comment that you haven't heard an SS amp with as good tone as SET is incomplete. It should be amp plus speaker, not amp alone.

I don't entirely agree. While the character of the amp can be influenced by the speaker, particluarly amps with a lot of negative feedback that are sensitive to the back EMF from the speaker, the characteristics of electronic distortion come through clearly on most high quality speakers and is very important to the ultimate believeability of the sound. SETs, without feedback, will be most affected by the number of watts demanded from the amp as to the nature and amount of distortion generated. SS amps with a lot of feedback will have a relatively fixed character (except as noted above) but it is a character that is normally far from ideal in terms of content of high order harmonics that has a negative impact on the tone and naturalness.

 

[morricab]

I already researched aelius and ruled it out, and when I say research it means multiple demos and compares. I haven't heard Aries horn, but heard many others including odeon Nr. 28 with NAT, KR, Einstein.


Your comment that you haven't heard an SS amp with as good tone as SET is incomplete. It should be amp plus speaker, not amp alone.

I have compared Vitus SM 102 and kondo kagura on magico. I would love to listen to NAT and KR and Aries on wisdom Alexandria, but now, Dan agostino remains the best amp on them. I would also like to listen to Vitus and Jadis on them.

As for the Vandy Quattro, I have heard them driven by NAT transmitters.

The Odeon No. 28 is not a full horn design. The bass is a special form of bass reflex and not horn loaded.