Windsor Hifi Show - simple systems ruled

[bonzo75]

Great to hear Adam. I will be there next year for sure.

 

[morricab]

Are you referring to this recording? 1947? Just checking...thanks!

View attachment 29709

Yes that's the one but it is not possible for it to be from 1947 because Riccardo Chailly was not born until 1953! I think the recording is from 2003.

 

[LL21]

Yes that's the one but it is not possible for it to be from 1947 because Riccardo Chailly was not born until 1953! I think the recording is from 2003.

Thanks! Yes, i think you are correct...1947 refers to the version of the piece itself, not the recording year. I will take a listen.

 

[bonzo75]

Having heard NATs drive apogee full range mids and Dartzeel drive evolution acoustics MM7 and having seen, for the first time, the cumulative effects of low noise and headroom succeeding to produce a better of everything, I am now a complete advocate of SS power amps except on horns. Unfortunately at the budget many are at, the SS is too crap and at small room sizes where large scale music cannot be played, valves sound better, and if the room is not well treated and well planned, you need valves to give that decay which SS might lack. Sorry for short and possibly vague message but too much to catch up on after a West coast weekend

 

[Folsom]

bonzo, looks like we have a similar thought. More than anything I can't help but go over how nice a large room is, after being in Mike L's.

 

[morricab]

Having heard NATs drive apogee full range mids and Dartzeel drive evolution acoustics MM7 and having seen, for the first time, the cumulative effects of low noise and headroom succeeding to produce a better of everything, I am now a complete advocate of SS power amps except on horns. Unfortunately at the budget many are at, the SS is too crap and at small room sizes where large scale music cannot be played, valves sound better, and if the room is not well treated and well planned, you need valves to give that decay which SS might lack. Sorry for short and possibly vague message but too much to catch up on after a West coast weekend

What about instrument tone, microdynamics and solid 3d imaging and soundstaging? Based on what I have heard from darTZeel it cannot do natural tone like a good SET. Like good SS, for sure. I think Michael Fremer's review where he compares the big darTZeel to the top Lamm ML3 illustrates and despite the fact that Fremer bought darTZeel, he had to admit what the Lamm was better at doing. Read the two reviews...the darTZeel is all an analytical description and the Lamm is a description of something approaching the living breathing music. The Dart review is all about speed, attack, resolution...oh and the tone is not so bad. The Lamm is about how real it sounded and how it shocked listeners to attention with that instant recognition of the real. I don't know about you but my quest is for the latter and not the former...clearly Fremer goes more for the analytical...maybe because it makes him a more "serious" reviewer...I don't know but his systems have always leaned that direction.

I have only heard the big ones under show conditions (the small ones I heard at length at Herve Deletraz's place with Dart pre) on Marten Design Coltrane Supreme 2s. It was not an impressive showing for the big system despite the enormous cost.

"
The Lamms gone, I reconnected the big darTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks ($144,500/pair) and, after letting them warm up for a day, played the track again. Through the solid-state amps, the sprinkly chime was still fast and precise but somewhat more harmonically reserved, and less three-dimensional and lifelike. But the double bass was definitely more like what I'd heard live, with greater control and authority, a tighter physical presence, and better delineation of the instrument from the reverberant space. All of which was also true of the trumpet: a bit less bloat, but a slightly drier sound. The hall and the instruments in it were also pushed somewhat farther back from the listening position than they were through the Lamms.

A strong case could be made for the verisimilitude of the sound from either of these pairs of similarly priced amplifiers, but the award for mesmerizingly hypnotic sound must go to the Lamm ML3 Signature.

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ml3-signature-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-2#ZZq54Uftqp1kzSLA.99"

Its this kind of description that convinces me that the darTZeel is not the sound for real acoustic music in space and is more geared towards an analytical rendition...at least compared to a top notch SET...against other SS amps it is likely to be better than most.

"The ML3s sounded far more linear overall, especially at the bottom, though not as linear or as well controlled as the darTZeels, but it was close enough to call it a trade-off: the tube amp provided greater textural and harmonic detail and, especially, a more fully fleshed out midband; the solid-state amp provided greater bass control and dynamic thrust, and a bit more extension.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ml3-signature-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-2#ZZq54Uftqp1kzSLA.99"

Again, as to be expected; however, I would note that based on the Lamm's measurements, I can fully understand why the bass is lacking somewhat in slam and control.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/...er-amplifier-measurements#Vx6u2mZD7hh5U1Tt.97

Note Figure 11 and 12. There is some core saturation in the output transformer that is likely responsible for a bit of "loosness" in the bass. I haven't seen measurements for the Diana but I can imagine that it does not have this rise in distortion at low frequencies because it has grip and slam like a really good SS amp but tone and texture like a true SET. Lamm could have used a bit bigger core on their output transformer and avoided this problem and had better bass. However, that would have required redesign in other areas, like the winding, to get good HF extension still. So, the Lamm then is maybe not the best SET in the world as it still have some measureable flaws that could have been corrected...especially at this price range.

 

[microstrip]

Having heard NATs drive apogee full range mids and Dartzeel drive evolution acoustics MM7 and having seen, for the first time, the cumulative effects of low noise and headroom succeeding to produce a better of everything, I am now a complete advocate of SS power amps except on horns. (...)

I think we need to make clear what you are meaning by headroom after you get a good sleep.

 

[microstrip]

What about instrument tone, microdynamics and solid 3d imaging and soundstaging? Based on what I have heard from darTZeel it cannot do natural tone like a good SET. Like good SS, for sure. (...)

It would be great to know what system (at less the source and speakers) you are listening to when writing these interesting comments.

 

[bonzo75]

I have not heard darts sounding good at shows but then I never use show conditions to judge electronics, I always compare in proper set ups. That said, I have no views on Dartzeel except that in Mike's set up sum of everything works and I haven't heard a better implementation of apogee than Henk putting 2kw of current into his system.

 

[microstrip]

I have not heard darts sounding good at shows but then I never use show conditions to judge electronics, I always compare in proper set ups.

You are an wise audiophile. Although the best sound I have listened from the NH 458's was at a show - large room in an old palace, M5 Magico's - it was magic!

That said, I have no views on Dartzeel except that in Mike's set up sum of everything works and I haven't heard a better implementation of apogee than Henk putting 2kw of current into his system.

Yes, but the MM7's are very efficient, the Apogees are not. IMHO no generalization is possible.

 

[bonzo75]

You are an wise audiophile. Although the best sound I have listened from the NH 458's was at a show - large room in an old palace, M5 Magico's - it was magic!



Yes, but the MM7's are very efficient, the Apogees are not. IMHO no generalization is possible.

In Mike's system is a different reason. extremely low noise throughout that is adding to the musicality. Other SS might have that. Are there any valve amps that have that low, or lower a noise floor? What I am saying is, Mike does not need the usual reasons why one needs valves - tone, decay, realism - he has that better than anyone. Ok, enough wikileaks from my report, details of which will be a week later at least as like Brexiters I cannot have everything, and I need to make up for work and gf time this week

 

[morricab]

It would be great to know what system (at less the source and speakers) you are listening to when writing these interesting comments.

The NHB-108 I heard at Herve Deletraz's house and he had these funky Rhedeko speakers. Preamp was the new (at that time) one from them and we were listening to analog I think with a rebuilt Garrard 301 or maybe it was an EMT something or other (can't really remember anymore exactly). Phonostage was the one built into the Dart pre.

At the show in Munich the big Darts were being driven by the Dart Pre (latest version) and into Marten Coltrane Supreme 2s. Can't remember the sources but they were undoubtedly very expensive like the rest of the system.

Finally heard a Dart setup in London in 2006 on Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage (? not sure which version now). Again, don't remember the source clearly.

 

[morricab]

In Mike's system is a different reason. extremely low noise throughout that is adding to the musicality. Other SS might have that. Are there any valve amps that have that low, or lower a noise floor? What I am saying is, Mike does not need the usual reasons why one needs valves - tone, decay, realism - he has that better than anyone. Ok, enough wikileaks from my report, details of which will be a week later at least as like Brexiters I cannot have everything, and I need to make up for work and gf time this week

How does the removal of something add anything?

 

[bonzo75]

The NHB-108 I heard at Herve Deletraz's house and he had these funky Rhedeko speakers. Preamp was the new (at that time) one from them and we were listening to analog I think with a rebuilt Garrard 301 or maybe it was an EMT something or other (can't really remember anymore exactly). Phonostage was the one built into the Dart pre.

At the show in Munich the big Darts were being driven by the Dart Pre (latest version) and into Marten Coltrane Supreme 2s. Can't remember the sources but they were undoubtedly very expensive like the rest of the system.

Finally heard a Dart setup in London in 2006 on Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage (? not sure which version now). Again, don't remember the source clearly.

What did you compare it with

 

[morricab]

What did you compare it with

compare with what? They were fixed systems. I heard in them what I heard. Speaker distortions and amp distortions are usually quite easy to separate out as they have totally different mechanisms of generation and therfore very different signatures. Now, that doesn't mean the source can't be causing issues...that was definitely possible.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO no generalization is possible.

+1.

Fremer does not have my room, my set-up, or my speakers.

this is much, much, much more than just an amplifier.

I have the highest expections, and my amplifier does not restrict those. beyond that it's just a piece to the puzzle. I think the speakers are a much bigger piece and more challenging thing in the big picture. particularly when you are intending for true full frequency range in a large scale system.

 

[microstrip]

The NHB-108 I heard at Herve Deletraz's house and he had these funky Rhedeko speakers. Preamp was the new (at that time) one from them and we were listening to analog I think with a rebuilt Garrard 301 or maybe it was an EMT something or other (can't really remember anymore exactly). Phonostage was the one built into the Dart pre.

At the show in Munich the big Darts were being driven by the Dart Pre (latest version) and into Marten Coltrane Supreme 2s. Can't remember the sources but they were undoubtedly very expensive like the rest of the system.

Finally heard a Dart setup in London in 2006 on Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage (? not sure which version now). Again, don't remember the source clearly.

Sorry if I was not clear - I was thinking about the systems used with the SETs you were describing.

But as we are referring to Dart's I will address them.

I have owned the big Rhedeko's 175 - the most colored speaker I have ever seen, but able to play some types of jazz as no other speaker. Too egocentric to be used for comparisons, IMHO.

Unfortunately most of the time the gear chosen at shows is not chosen by synergy or optimized matching, but mainly due to distribution agreements and even local friendships. I have also owned a DartZeel system and tried it with SF Guarneri and IMHO it was not a very good match.

The best sound I have ever listened of a DartZeel was with the Soundlab's and old Magico's. Some Wilson's could also sound big and powerful on them. But yes, unless properly matched they will sound sweet but SS. I have to say I was expecting great thinks about DartZeel and the ELS 63 but was disappointed.

As Ken says, DartZeel's can sound really great, but IMHO you have to center the whole system on them.

 

[morricab]

Sorry if I was not clear - I was thinking about the systems used with the SETs you were describing.

But as we are referring to Dart's I will address them.

I have owned the big Rhedeko's 175 - the most colored speaker I have ever seen, but able to play some types of jazz as no other speaker. Too egocentric to be used for comparisons, IMHO.

Unfortunately most of the time the gear chosen at shows is not chosen by synergy or optimized matching, but mainly due to distribution agreements and even local friendships. I have also owned a DartZeel system and tried it with SF Guarneri and IMHO it was not a very good match.

The best sound I have ever listened of a DartZeel was with the Soundlab's and old Magico's. Some Wilson's could also sound big and powerful on them. But yes, unless properly matched they will sound sweet but SS. I have to say I was expecting great thinks about DartZeel and the ELS 63 but was disappointed.

As Ken says, DartZeel's can sound really great, but IMHO you have to center the whole system on them.

Yeah, I was not impressed with those speakers but Herve seemed to love them.

I have to admit that I am not following you competely, what SETs and what system? Do you mean my own personal amps and review amps?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I have to admit that I am not following you competely, what SETs and what system? Do you mean my own personal amps and review amps?

The system that was used to listen to the Diana - you commented on its bass versus the Lamm's bass. I have experience with the XLF's with the 458's and smaller amplifiers, but for me the picture is still too incomplete to understand your comment.

 

[morricab]

The system that was used to listen to the Diana - you commented on its bass versus the Lamm's bass. I have experience with the XLF's with the 458's and smaller amplifiers, but for me the picture is still too incomplete to understand your comment.

I have not compared the Diana to the Lamm and I never said I had.